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tigital bbogart: very true, and I'm thankful for that, but it'll still take awhile for me to adjust (which I had never considered before)
bbogart any word from HC? 
bbogart I have to leave the house by 4:00 (1h55 from now) FYI
korayt no, I was just checking the emails, but nothing from HC
korayt I have to leave in an hour as well
bbogart Ok, so its been a while since we had a PDDP meeting, I know hans has been working on a set of tutorials that I have not looked at yet.
bbogart koray, how is the U course going? I've been musing that we should all write reports after doing workshops to have a record or what we think worked and did not work, new ideas, places for imrpovement. Could you do that Korway? (just putting it on your wiki would be fine)
korayt btw, I upload student project presentations-video files at http://www.puredata.org/Members/korayt/04.04.2006/
korayt bbogart, I can do that, and upload on wiki
korayt bbogart, these days are over busy,  I need to clean up my table till 22nd of May
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korayt bbogart, but after that that will be on the top of todo list
wip korayt, hey very nice!!! looking at the video :)
korayt wip, I couldnt well documented the video materials, but I guess they give some ideas for their projects
korayt bbogart, all in all it was very nice experience to have a longer PD course, I am happy with whole process
bbogart korayt, great to hear. 
bbogart Ok, so how do we want to spend this time? Anyone else had a chance to look at Hans's tutorials?
korayt bbogart, I couldn't have time
bbogart yeah me either. 
adamairma anyone?
korayt lets wait for Hans:-)
bbogart The other thing to talk about is the whole "working document" how to organize the huge PDDP project stuff. 
korayt Will it be a part of installation package?
bbogart No, really its a document that represents all the decitions we have made and defines what PDDP is. A lot of the same content would be in the "teachers guide"
bbogart I'm just not sure how to organize it, the wiki is a great archive, but not very structured...
korayt bbogart, I see
korayt and most of the things are at Wiki at the moment
oskude oh yeah, i allready forgot today is meeting (was just wondering why is here so much traffic:)
bbogart I think everything, just not in a form that makes it easy for people who have not been around to contribute. 
bbogart oskude, hehe
korayt bbogart, that's true
bbogart I have a fear if I forget something I'll never find it again. And that it makes it so hard for new PDDP to help, since they don't know what to help with. 
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bbogart Do you all want to take a crack at laying out the different aspects of PDDP and the decitions we have made thus far?
oskude i havent been following this docu meeting, but my "mustard" would be, the more examples (in pd) the better. as i love to copy and paste when i learn new programming languages
bbogart oskude, indeed, one of the main ideas is to have examples to both learn from and also to use. (were you around for the top-down bottom-up discussion?)
korayt I guess it would be good to keep them for documentary purposes, like all the decisions and so on, but to organize them, that would take time
oskude bbogart, i havent thinked about that so much... but i think it could depend what you are doing...
bbogart korayt, indeed, I think the first step is really just to focus what it is we're doing, then its easier...
korayt bbogart, I agree.
bbogart I'm loading up the wiki page
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oskude and as i use pd only at home (alone:), so i just lurk around...
bbogart I'm looking at: https://www.pure-data.info/dev/pddp/PDDPParts
bbogart Did I miss anything?
korayt I guess not
bbogart The other thing about PDDPparts is the idea of tasks and responsibilities... (I already forgot how much work I did on this page)
matju bbogart: back
bbogart matju, hey matju. Would you like to update the group on your font-work?
matju bbogart: are TTF files consistently displayed across platforms? is there any way to adjust them to be so?
bbogart matju, I have not done any tests... 
oskude i think vector fonts are relative to screen resolution and dpi (pixmap fonts only to screen resolution)
matju bbogart: i'm thinking about bitmap fonts because i'm more sure that they are consistently displayed
matju bbogart: plus, i don't think antialiasing is a good idea on very small fonts
* oskude gives votes for bitmap fonts too :)
matju bbogart: or rather, that antialiasing would need to be done more carefully than what it's currently done like on small fonts on any platform
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matju korayt: matjuuuu is myself logged in from Montreal, but i'm in Ottawa today
bbogart matju, the problem matju is trying to solve (keep this in mind matju) is that the PDDP templates can be implimented and will work on all platforms. not the general need to improve how fonts look/act in PD. 
korayt matju, you are everywhere :-)
bbogart Should I add PDDPparts sections for things like "lexicon" and "philosophy"? 
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korayt bbogart, will there be sub section for teaching materials?
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bbogart korayt, hmmmmm I guess that would go in the "curriculum" section?
korayt yes, then do you think we should keep lexicon and philosophy separetly or under curriculum?
matju bbogart: well, i'm trying to solve several problems at once
matju bbogart: and actually, none of the work i've done on 0.39-2 has anything to do with getting a common font!
bbogart matju, thats fine, but the sooner we have consistant patches on platforms the sooner people can contribute by adopting the PDDP templates and converting the old reference patches. 
matju bbogart: the part on common fonts is only something i talked about with alx last night
bbogart matju, ok... 
oskude i think thats _the_ problem in pd, pathces are not 100% lookalike in all os...
matju bbogart, i don't know of a way to use a same font on all platforms because i'm not using all platforms anyway
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oskude btw matju, do you know if its possible to embedd fonts in pd/tk ? (i didnt find anything)
matju bbogart, i'm a perpetual newbie on osx, on which most of my skills are due to experience with linux/bsd
matju bbogart, i haven't had Windows since the day i uninstalled Windows 3.1 because it wasn't running that good inside DESQview/QEMM/DRDOS.
bbogart matju, I guess the best way would be to devise a test so we could help you. Here is some tcl/tk code, run it and measure how many pixels high and wide the "M" "g" etc.. are. Or send you back a screenshot for measurement...
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bbogart matju, for now it need not be perfect anyhow, but as it is opening a windows patch on linux means its unreadable without changing the font-bomb
matju oskude: afaik, "amsn" is a tcl/tk app (for instant messaging) which works on linux+osx+win32 and comes with bundled TrueType fonts, but i don't know if the bundled fonts are bundled with all three versions
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matju oskude: the main difference between amsn packages between platforms seems to be the installer and 2% of plugin code that is written in C (98% in Tcl)
oskude matju, btw, amsn uses ttk(tile) with a "compapility plugin" to tk "chameleon" (see my pd-dev post)
matju oskude: i pulled the 2% figure out of nowhere, but it's approx true
matju oskude: which pd-dev post?
oskude prettypd
oskude ah, im andre 
bbogart korayt, I forgot two elements for PDDP "evaluation" the idea of the instructor reports, and the idea of a participant survey for students
matju bbogart, where's the tcl/tk test?
bbogart matju, there is none yet... do you want me to make you one? 
dyno hi all
oskude heres some test i made while back http://www.osku.de/pd/tst01/
korayt bbogart, good idea to have both evaluation sections
oskude cant remember what it was with that "tk scaling" though :) (should be in archives)
bbogart oskude, hey cool, I did not know about these. Do you have the data (pixel sizes) or just the images? 
oskude ill digg the archive, sec
bbogart korayt, what do you mean "both" I was thinking a separate section for "evaluation" that includes the reports and the survey;s?
korayt bbogart, thats what I tried to mean to have reports and surveys by both:-)
matju bbogart: use the "font metrics" command to get the info. this will make accurate measurements for *all* letters without user intervention.
bbogart oskude, damn it is all over the place eh, not even linux is consistant itself..?
oskude yup, but i think thats cause tk scales even bitmap fonts...
bbogart korayt, hmmm. I think it makes sense to get instructors to write a report, but that may be redundant with the survey? I think it would be overkill to ask all the students to write reports rather than 15min surveys...
matju bbogart: there are other interesting subcommands of the "font" command
matju bbogart: try "man n font" or "man 3tk font"
bbogart matju, do you think you can solve this problem? 
korayt bbogart, that's true, we should come up with good survey for students, that would help alot for the teaching
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korayt ofcourse instructors report will be helpfull too
bbogart korayt, I'm working on it already, recently made one for interaccess I'm using as a starting point. 
oskude heres the threat about tk scaling http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2005-11/033127.html (but i doubt i have the attachment anymore, or should the archive have it somewhere?)
korayt bbogart, can you send it to me too when it is ready, I can send it to students as well
bbogart korayt, I guess a survey for instructors could be helpful... but I wonder if it would be awkward since what we really want he "expert" opinion, which does not lend itself to multiple-choice questions.
bbogart korayt, I'll put it on the PDDP wiki. Maybe a wiki version we can comment on and add to. 
korayt bbogart, cool
korayt bbogart, I will comment on it later
korayt I have to leave now
korayt seems like Hans is not arround yet
wip pascal gauthier and friends live @ ckut (using pd): http://secure.ckut.ca:8164/
wip mp3 strea,
bbogart korayt, feel free to bother me so I don't forget to do it, when does your course end?
korayt it ended 4th of April
bbogart ah, too late for them then.
korayt that was the presentation day
alx1 korayt, seems like he is at a terminal, I keep getting recent mails...
korayt but i can always bother them with emails
korayt alx1, hello:-)
korayt alx1, I need to leave soon, but i will catch the PDDP later on
oskude heres the little test on tk scaling http://www.osku.de/pd/tst01/tkscaling-test1.tk
wip oups intercom. they gonna do a live set between now and 5...
korayt ok guys, lets keep list updated if we will have another PDDP meeting
korayt I have to leave now
korayt till then, take care everybody
bbogart korayt, wait, when do you want to meet next?
korayt see you all!!
korayt next Tuesday?
alx1 korayt, cya
bbogart works for me, lets pencil that in. 
korayt 2nd of May
korayt same time
bbogart yup, 2nd of May for next meeting, same time. 
korayt cool
korayt :-)
korayt alright, see you eveybody
korayt bye
bbogart bye Koray
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oskude and heres the proof that tk scales also bitmap fonts, left is my own made pixel font (only lowercase a-h are editet) and right pd scales it...
matju bbogart: i could try, but i'll peek in amsn for that and i don't want to install it here and i have other things to do
oskude hups, forgot the link http://osku.de/ext-stuff/pd_font_trouble01.png
oskude well, dunno if its tk or pd that scales it...
matju bbogart: and personally, a higher priority is to get desiredata to a beta level and publish it
matju bbogart: because it's been waaaaay too long without concrete results
matju bbogart: and i barely can stand regular pd anymore
matju oskude: threat != thread. (was it a joke?=)
bbogart matju, I understand, but we're aiming for maximum adolption here for PDDP, so unless Hans opts to have DD in pd-extended, we're stuck with "regular" PD...
oskude no, a typo (but we can take it as joke too;)
bbogart matju, so what we really need is just enough consistancy so that the tempales work on all platforms. 
oskude and Tile does the tk gui cooler ;)
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oskude i gotta ask the Tile guy if hes gonna implement "menu" in ttk to... as thats the only thing that still looks ugly, when using ttk (+chameleon)
oskude but these dont affect the look of pd patches, so offtopic atm ;)
bbogart I need to get ready pretty soon. 
bbogart (ready to leave)
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metafor i have a question considering gridflow, can someone spare some time?
bbogart any other PDDP people have ideas or want to share anything/
bbogart ?
* oskude hides :) (been very lazy...)
oskude but what ive seen until now, all looks very good (just concerned about the looks an all oses) are there any screenshot yet on all platforms ?
bbogart oskude, screenshots of PDDP templates?
oskude yup
oskude but they propably wont look 100% the same atm...
bbogart oskude, probably will look like crap, I'm not keep to make screenshots until there is a hope of consistant patches on all platforms.
oskude roger (i think the same)
metafor so i throw it to the crowd: i would like to get colors at a ceratin pixelposition of a videostream. is this easy to do? at the moment i use pdp/pidip/ctrack (which is not really built for this, as i need to track multiple points at the same time and ctrack needs many xv's for this job)
bbogart matju, Please save us from PD ;)
oskude and (for me) that right click on canvas > help that lists all available objects would be a "must"...
bbogart oskude, the new browser should fix up all that...
oskude ah ok
oskude and btw, is pdb down ? outofdate ? cause when i want to test new externals, i would look (in web) what externals do what, then install (best case apt-get install;) and then canvas right click > help to see what new objects i have, then create that object and see its help file (i assume the new browser can list all installed externals and open its help patch with a click?)
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oskude but allso allready looking a help patch online (before installing the external) would be maybe nice too... (i allready made some pd2image and pd2svg tests in php, but i failed when i came to parsing subpatches:)
matju bbogart: why the ";)" ?
bbogart matju, well since ATM we need saving from inconsistant fonts, not the whole thing. ;)
bbogart oskude, I think pdp is not updated anymore... [pd meta] will mean we search for externals installed on your machine, and it should be easy to make a webpage that does the same for the stuff in CVS/SVN. 



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