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doc@irc 05/3

by IOhannes m zmoelnig last modified 2005-05-11 01:16 PM

tempfile of a logfile of the 1st doc-meeting @ IRC on 02 May 2005 as found on http://artengine.ca/matju/dataflow-doc-meeting.irc.txt

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<matju> steph_lab: hi Stéphanie
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<matju> steph_lab: username "bogus" ? (hehe)
<alx_> http://data-art.uqam.ca/doc.php
<normand> steph_lab: bonjour
<steph_lab> allo matju
<steph_lab> nor
<steph_lab> bonjour normand
<alx_> matju: ma suggestion (bogus)
<alx_> matju: I was listing the documentation effort for pd so far
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<alx_> matju: so tom's site is one of the latest in french
<alx_> there are not that many in french but jerome abel's work seems to be the starting point
<alx_> did he ever show up here?
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<waxboy> question: i want to compile pd with a new patch applied, how should i do this?
<alx_> the other project is PDDP (puredata documentation project)
<matju> waxboy: "patch" as in "diff" ?
<alx_> it would make sense to work with the same formatting as the PDDP project (I'm showing the example to Darsha and Steph)
<matju> alx_: can you show the example to me too ?
<matju> alx_: who is jerome abel ? have a url ?
<alx_> matju: hc sent it to pd-dev I believe but I can send it to you if you don't have it
<waxboy> matju: yes and no, that's right sends of patch, but it has a .c and a .patch file
<matju> alx_: you are subscribed to pd-dev ?
<waxboy> *sense
<alx_> matju: yes
<matju> waxboy: do you have Larry Wall's "patch" program ?
<matju> steph_lab: are you subscribed to pd-dev too ?
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<waxboy> matju: looks like i don't even have the X devel package, so i'd guess no
<steph_lab> matju: no
<matju> steph_lab: you know PDDP is mostly being discussed on pd-dev ?
<matju> steph_lab: http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-dev
<matju> waxboy: here's a url for you: file:/usr/bin/patch
<steph_lab> matju: merci
<alx_> matju: I sent you jerome's doc and the example file (help-clip.pd)
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<waxboy> matju: ahh, looks like i've got it after all
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<alx_> matju: we like the look of that help file and the fact that it is easily understandable to a beginner
<alx_> matju: should we adopt that formatting and if so what does that mean about reference.html?
<alx_> here is the site where jerome is active :
<alx_> http://www.idecibel.com/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=29&page=0
<alx_> so Jerome had started to translate 'pd documentation' from Miller
<alx_> and I think it would be good to finish it
<matju> alx_: i think that we could make the help files as hello-example.pd in folder separate from doc/ and then have a tool merge together the .xml documentation with the hello-example.pd; wouldn't that be nice?
<alx_> then maybe have something organising the info within the pd documentation like a glossary
<matju> alx_: but that's just one idea i just have, and several such plans should be considered.
<alx_> matju: yes that is the holy grail of PDDP isn't it?
<alx_> matju: that and a better [comment]?
<normand> alx_: Miller's book is being translated to French: http://willow75.free.fr/article06/index.html
<matju> alx_: i want a better [comment], but i don't know what are the features you want in them.
<alx_> normand: yes the first two chapters, afaik no one has done the 'pd documentation'
<alx_> matju: cut and paste
<matju> alx_: my preferred [comment] depends on changing the .pd format (!) and Miller does not consider any .pd format documentation as authoritative (!!!)
<alx_> matju: even though your idea would minimize the need for it
<alx_> matju: you mean it is not documented?
<matju> alx_: officially, no, although Miller has put out a paper on it in 1997.
<alx_> matju: ic
<matju> alx_: i have mirrored the paper at: http://artengine.ca/matju/pd/Miller_Puckette_-_PD_File_Format.ps
<alx_> matju: he did mention something about unicode support in patches when asked at the medien kunst labor
<matju> alx_: but now I want to write another one documenting current practice, which is an extension of what's found in that paper, and then I would be proposing further extensions.
<alx_> matju: not a bad idea
<alx_> matju: so we agree that until there is a change to the .pd format, it will be hard to use the reference material (in xml) to generate help patches
<alx_> matju: so what should we start on given that such a change is beyond our means
<matju> alx_: my augmented comment would also need Pd Strings instead of the current list-of-atoms crap we have.
<alx_> matju: I suggest making changes to reference.xml
<alx_> matju: right
<matju> alx_: i mean, do this: Ctrl+5 The value of PI is 3.1415926535
<matju> alx_: then save it, close, and reload it. note the diff
<Qbert-> matju: responded to your naming question :)
<matju> Qbert-: I saw =) thanks.
<alx_> matju: so the comment allows 6 digits only? like number?
<Qbert-> ha, that *is* weird :)
<matju> alx_: yes, and guess why. actually don't: pd comments are made of symbols (yuck!) and floats (yuck yuck!) and the spaces are considered as atom-delimiters (yuck cubed!)
<mamalala> thats sick ....
<matju> alx_: which means that lots of formatting you may try to do with spaces and newlines are going to get borked.
<Qbert-> definantly
<Qbert-> try doing :
<Qbert-> |
<Qbert-> |
<Qbert-> |
<Qbert-> |
<matju> Qbert-: definitely, or defiantly ?
<Qbert-> definantly
<Qbert-> :P
<matju> heh
<Qbert-> definantly is dutch-english, not your broken canadian-e
<Qbert-> nglish
<Qbert-> %-)
<matju> alx_: you understand what i mean?
<matju> alx_: try to write a lot of different comments with various combinations of spaces, commas, numbers, newlines, etc. and look at how they look like when loading the resulting .pd file in a text editor...
<alx_> matju: yes I see, maybe that will be an item for Friday
<matju> alx_: some people want to replace the .pd format problem with wall-to-wall XML. congratulations: now they have _two_ problems.
<alx_> :-)
<matju> alx_: i mean XML requires an extra library, and it doesn't specify the details of how the PdXML format will look like, and it doesn't solve the problem of reflecting the new features to a netsend/netreceive format, which _is_ currently in sync with the .pd format
<alx_> matju: I don't understand about the netsend/netreceive thing
<matju> alx_: and granted that the netsend/netreceive protocol is sort of inefficient compared to OSC and MIDI, but (justement) making it <float>1.618034</float> isn't improving anything.
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<bbogart> doc meeting dead?
<alx_> matju: hence your idea of bringing this up to date? http://artengine.ca/matju/pd/Miller_Puckette_-_PD_File_Format.ps
<alx_> bbogart: hello
<bbogart> hey Alex, how goes it?
<matju> alx_: the .pd format is an extension of the netsend/netreceive protocol. They share a lot of notation.
<alx_> bbogart: very well, sitting in the new space actually
<bbogart> alex: Great! how does it feel?
<Qbert-> btw i rememver there was somebody at my school, Tjeerd smoething, who was busy documenting the pd file format
<matju> alx_: both formats are based on floats, symbols, atoms, spaces, messages, and semicolon terminators.
<bbogart> What is the topic of this meeting?
<alx_> bbogart: better when the lease is signed ;-)
<Qbert-> offcialy grindflow docs
<matju> bbogart: documentation and all underlying issues.
<Qbert-> ah :) i stand correctedc
<Qbert-> -c
<alx_> bbogart: but we have insurance (ignorance is bliss for them)
<matju> Qbert-: no, you're right
<bbogart> alex, good news about insurance. I've not been to IA since finland, but yesterday was our first day of occupancy!
<matju> bbogart: GridFlow doc meeting, but it ties into pddp, pd, .pd, .xml, whatever.
<Qbert-> i could email those guys matju, see if i can get them online here
<Qbert-> should i?
<matju> Qbert-: who?
<bbogart> matju, ah! well very related indeed. What do you all think of Kryzstof'
<Qbert-> btw i rememver there was somebody at my school, Tjeerd smoething, who was busy documenting the pd file format
<bbogart> 's ideas about the pddserver stuff?
<Qbert-> that guy, Tjeerd :
<matju> bbogart: i dunno, i'm first concerned about the format of the docs and how to write them in the first place. what would a pddpserver be good for, in your opinion?
<bbogart> matju, peeked at any of the stuff I put up on the wikis? Both in terms of workshop curriculum and help menu help-files
<bbogart> matju, I'm not really into the pddserver idea... There is an issue with a tonne of text in patch comment boxes, BUT its a much more unified approach, since the document/theory/example is in one page
<matju> bbogart: i haven't looked at doc issues in a long time, actually. it's just alx1 dragging me back into it =) that and some ideas of ImpureData resurfacing...
<bbogart> matju, lots of people have an opinion about it, but In the grand scheme I think the idea of having PDDP/help patches and a tutorial-workshop system all unified and integrated is a good thing.
<alx_> http://www.artengine.ca/~alx/lab/
<bbogart> matju, I don't think the PD patcher is lacking that much to make nice clear documentation, In fact I think it could even look good on paper when printed with just a few changes, to text(comments) largely.
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<matju> steph_lab: being quiet?
<matju> Qbert-: http://student-kmt.hku.nl/~tjeerd/pd/ ?
<Qbert-> bbogart: ive been thinking of porting the max tutorials to pd, this is something i also proposed in my email that was cut short after the 'hello guys' affair
<Qbert-> him!
<Qbert-> thats actually from my introductory course pd :)
<Qbert-> last year :)
<Qbert-> haha, who did you find it, google tjeerd + pd?
<matju> Qbert-: ok, but i can't read nederlandisch
<Qbert-> nah that aint about the file specs anyways
<Qbert-> ill mail him see if he's awake.
<alx_> bbogart: yes, there are many bits of documentation around that are not updated
<alx_> bbogart: and a unified workshop would be great
<alx_> bbogart: documentation effort rather
<alx_> bbogart: we like the hlep-clip.pd example
<bbogart> HC and I think that the best place for the documentation is the PD patch format. Even with its issues. (like anything)
<alx_> bbogart: s/hlep/help
<matju> Qbert-: don't give up, post your mail again, just without any "hello" at all. That'll teach them politicalcorrectnessparanoids
<steph_lab> normand: what work have you done on the gridflow help files?
<alx_> bbogart: we propose to keep that format for the gf docs
<bbogart> alx_, I'm starting a template for PDDP that makes things look a little more clear in terms of layout. The damn font problem on multiple platforms really sucks, Matju any idea about how to fix this?
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>normand< CTCP USERINFO
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<normand> steph_lab: none, I got involved in way too many projects. But I want too put pd and gf at the forefront
<matju> Qbert-: yes, google is pretty good at finding everybody
<alx_> bbogart: we could use help-clip.pd as a starting point but a template is good to have
<bbogart> alx_, I don't have GF here, any screenshots anywhere?
<alx_> I need to step out for a minute
<Qbert-> matju: reposted ;-)
<alx_> sure look to http://gridflow.ca then screenshots!
<steph_lab> normand: ok I just wanted to make sure so we don't end up doing the work twice
<normand> steph_lab: agreed! We should use the wiki and list the work to be done andwho's agreed to do it.
<bbogart> alx_, matju, I don't see any *-help patches here.
<matju> steph_lab: do you mind if i post the photos of Artengine Labs on pd-list ? because you're on the photo... and so are Darsha & Andrée.
<matju> bbogart: here where?
<matju> bbogart: we don't have screenshots of the help patches, no.
<bbogart> matju: www.artengine.ca/gallery
<bbogart> ah ok
<matju> bbogart: you mean gridflow.ca/gallery
<bbogart> woops, yeah
<matju> alx_: shouldn't i write a script to automatically convert a .pd to a .ps ?
<Qbert-> matju: does gridflow really motion track???
<bbogart> Qbert: I think all the pd vis plugins do now. (maybe not framestein)
<Qbert-> oh man
<bbogart> matju: hmmm, would your script just do the same as the "print" function in PD?
<Qbert-> now im gonna have to learn that too
<Qbert-> :(
<Qbert-> ;)
<matju> Qbert-: gridflow has [#centroid] among other things
<matju> bbogart: yes, but it happens that the print function isn't available from pd's -send "" option
<bbogart> matju, makes sense.
<matju> bbogart: i think that Tk supports some kind of remotecontrol via X11 peer-to-peer ("interclient") connections, but i don't recall how to do it.
<bbogart> matju: reminds me of the old AREXX days. I still wish for that in linux apps!
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<dpro> ben: yeah that was so brilliant
<matju> bbogart: AREXX ? isn't that an OS/2 thingie?
<dpro> matju: I used it quite heavily on amigas
<bbogart> REXX may have been. AREXX is Amiga Rexx. Many apps (all the ones that survived) had "arexx" ports. This meant from arexx the language you could run any function exposed in any amiga application. This was true in most of them, from imageprocessing to email.
<minDscrm> what was that graphical cvs program that i think mamalala mentioned ?
<minDscrm> it was named like a mexican beer.. cervisa
<dpro> minDscrm: cervisia
<minDscrm> copol thakns
<Qbert-> as of yet theres now gridflow-list right? only -dev & -cvs
<minDscrm> thakns dpro
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<Qbert-> dpro & minDscrm: hi :)
<minDscrm> hi qbert :)_
<p8r_> hi all!
<Qbert-> welcome p8r_
<bbogart> I think the biggest issue with a template for -help.pd files is the font-size crap, followed by the whole issue of layout control and comments being a little hard to read.
<minDscrm> hi pete
<alx_> p8r_: hiya
<Qbert-> bbogart: i dont see hwy the template issue cant be solved very easily: set the font correct for mac & linux (10 i believe) but make sure that when you increase fontsize objects dont overlap. IMHO the small font size is perfectly readible on windows, but i guess for some it isnt
<Qbert-> it shouldnt be that hard to include a script with the windows release that just increased the fontsize for all help files if need be
<alx_> matju: wait up jsut a moment on the pictures, I'd like to sign the lease first ;-)
<matju> bbogart: you think it's the font size? i think that an equally crippling issue is that one can't set the width of a commentbox ! what do you think?
<matju> alx_: oh ok. =)
<bbogart> Qbert-, I guess this would be ok except things would be very spaced out in the platform with the smallest type.
<matju> alx_: when do you sign?
<Qbert-> bbogart: no beause youd increase the fontszie on that paltform
<Qbert-> oh wait
<Qbert-> nm
<Qbert-> i see your point
<Qbert-> it would be wide on linux & mac
<matju> Qbert-: gridflow-dev and gridflow-cvs, and the latter is currently broken (you can subscribe but the cvs logs don't reach it for now)
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<matju> Qbert-: just two mailing-lists. the rest of GF discussion goes directly on pd-list and pd-dev
<alx_> matju: can't we print a pd file as it is? I have never tried it
<bbogart> matju, if we can't make the template look the SAME on all platforms, rather than similar It could get ugly very fast. I don't think it would work for developers since they would need to "test" the help patch on three OSs! :( The comment box is a significant other problem as well, but at least the comment box acts the same on all the platforms.
<matju> alx_: go in the File menu... select "Print". is it counterintuitive ? ;-)
<alx_> matju: sorry I am lagging...I'll keep on reading the log
<bbogart> "print" just prompts you to save a PS file, I have a little gs script that makes a pdf from it. www.ekran.org/pd
<dpro> seas p8r :)
<matju> alx_: "Print" actually means "Export to PostScript (.ps)" but on Unix that's normal.
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<matju> p8r_: hi
<bbogart> Personally I would like a sans-serif font that I can force justify into paragraphs in comments (or instead of comments)
<steph_lab> normand: which wiki do you suggest using?
<bbogart> I think the fixed comment width is not a big deal, since the template would just conform to that standard width.
<tim> bye
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<matju> bbogart: is it really fixed-width, or is it platform-dependent / screen-width-dependent ?
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<bbogart> matju: ha! good point, I would hope it would be fixed width IF the font was fixed width on all platforms.
<Anton-> matju: how many active gridflow users are there, approx?
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<Anton-> matju: could i run gridflow properly on a PIII 600 mhz?
<Anton-> properly: as in usefully for stuff like motion tracking for instance
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<darsha> matju: hey matju, I will be in Montreal on wednesday, do you want to meet up and look at gridflow intro changes together?
<Anton-> -----------------------------------------------------------------
<Anton-> doctalk
<Anton-> chapter II
<Anton-> section I
<Anton-> a.
<Anton-> ah the fear of a blank canvas
<Anton-> i should turn to my solfege training
<alx_> matju: this week
<matju> darsha: yes. Wednesday is free. Come at home. 8257 StDenis (métro Jarry)
<bbogart> Anton- What is good about the Max help patches you would like in the PD ones?
<matju> darsha: at what time?
<matju> Anton-: i developed GridFlow on a Cx6 166 MHz, then upgraded to a K6.2 400 MHz for a few years, and then...
<matju> Anton-: but i warn you, the resolution will be bad.
<matju> Anton-: i'm a liar: i actually started writing GF just after I got the 400 MHz.
<matju> alx_: nice
<matju> Anton-: on that kind of machine you can do some basic things at 240*320 pixels, 15 fps, with GF. You can get better framerates with GEM or PDP, but the feature sets are much different.
<bbogart> Anton-, What kind of tracking are you aiming for?
<matju> Anton-: there aren't many GridFlow users that I know... most of them are just beginning with it. ClaudiusMaximus has made some nice patches.
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<alx_> matju: I don't know if you caught these but I made some vids for you : http://www.artengine.ca/~alx/gradshow/
<alx_> matju: Rob Watson and Nao's are using pd
<Anton-> bbogart: i havent got a clue, im in a research stage for my first installation project
<alx_> matju: of the two Rob has done it all himself
<matju> alx_: who's Nao again?
<Anton-> bbogart: im not talking about the max help patches!!!
<matju> alx_: i downloaded the vids but haven't watched them yet
<bbogart> Anton-, I have only used the centroid tracker in Gem and it works quiet well.
<bbogart> Anton-, I got you confused with the other Anton (doktorp)!
<bbogart> Anton-, I appolofgize.
<Anton-> bbogart: im talking about the max tutorials
<Anton-> http://www.synthesisters.com/download/Max45TutorialsAndTopics.pdf for example
<Anton-> i like to think they are to max what bartoks mikrokosmos is to piano
<bbogart> Anton-, Ok I got you, which would fit into the workshop-standard project right? Basicially using those as inspiration? How do they fit into Miller's tutorials?
<Anton-> totally different aproach
<Anton-> assuming your tking about millres book
<alx_> matju: nao yokoyama, he did the walks with me and the gps. In the end of it he gets arrested. The gps drawing is of the us embassy.
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<Anton-> bbogart: millers approach is explaining computer music theory using pd
<minDscrm> everything can be explained through pd
<Anton-> bbogart: the tutorial aproach is explaining max step by step
<minDscrm> :)
<Anton-> minDscrm: sigh! ;-)
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<alx_> sooo...to go back to the meeting, now that pd is going to change to accomodate our wishes we are free to concentrate on the content?
<alx_> matju: for us, we will start by doing documentation of 10 gf objects
<matju> darsha: i asked you: at what time do you want to meet?
<alx_> matju: and embark on the translation of the 'pd documentation'
<matju> alx_: how do you know that pd is going to change to accomodate your wishes? =)
<matju> alx_: anyhow, yes, back to the main topic of the meeting
<darsha> matju: 1:00pm Wednesday?
<matju> alx_: ask on pd-dev and/or pd-list for other possible translation efforts to french, and for general advice on how to organise translations.
<matju> darsha: excellent. see you then. 8257 StDenis.
<Anton-> oh dear
<Anton-> translations
<Anton-> but then all those foreigners will learn how to use pd!!!
<Anton-> by god we cant let that happen
<matju> Anton-: we don't need sarcasm, we need help =)
<Anton-> yeah sorry
* Anton- hopes that the doc template wars will be over soon so he can start doing something
<alx_> matju: ok I'll wait to hear back from tom about their efforts and try to contact jerome about it, I'll post after I have an idea of the state of their project
<darsha> Matju: great, I will call you if there are any changes
<matju> darsha: cool, you've got my number ?
<darsha> matju: yup, I have it.
<matju> shit, it's really raining like mad here. and it was a blue sky one hour ago
<matju> actually, that was a hailstorm
<matju> alx_: cool.
<matju> alx_: anything more to say for this meeting?
<alx_> matju: well just that we will need some nurturing as we get going
<minDscrm> do i need kde to run cervisia ?
<minDscrm> (sporry.. i didn't know hyou guys where having a meetting)
<alx_> matju: I wanted to discuss a 'top 10 things to do with pd / gf' list
<matju> alx_: count on me.
<alx_> matju: sup
<matju> alx_: oh, so go on with that top 10 list. what do you want to say/ask ?
<matju> minDscrm: it wasn't written in the /topic anyway... sorry
<alx_> matju: for gf : 1. easy motion detection, 2. interfacing with sensors, 3. how to play your videos, 4. how to display an image, 5. how to modify a still image / video
<alx_> matju: probably going like this : # 3, # 4, # 5, # 1, # 2 ...and then putting it all together
<alx_> matju: also for gf, interface to the web (mysql) and maybe something about the flashserver (I'll take care fo that one don't worry ;-)
<matju> alx_: have you tried contacting Pd from a CGI script yet?
<alx_> matju: no but that reminds me of NeRMe's project to control pd through a cell phone
<alx_> matju: and both of those would be high on the list
<matju> alx_: i already did the CGI thing in 2003, and then Yves replied that he already had this long ago, or something.
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<Anton-> back
<alx_> matju: ok well that is one less thing to do
<matju> alx_: no, i mean you should be trying it yourself.
<matju> alx_: or have one of your students show you how to do it.
<alx_> matju: for projects that are not featured in a tutorial, aalex is setting up a cmf on the UfO's server so we can host projects
<alx_> matju: that is a redundant sentence but you get my drift
<alx_> matju: did you upload the cgi thing on the wiki?
<matju> alx_: i'm not sure there was artengine's wiki back then...
<matju> alx_: nor IEM's wiki, for that matter
<alx_> matju: haha
<alx_> matju: you still have the files? if you want to send them to me, I'll post them
<matju> alx_: they are on the pd-list
<alx_> ! okie
<matju> alx_: actually i found this, but that's GridFlow directly in a CGI without Pd : http://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2003-02/009564.html
<alx_> oh I need to get going, I'll log back from home
<matju> alx_: ok bye
<alx_> matju: thanks
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<ClaudiusMaximus> matju: i tried casting coordinates for #rotate to float32 to try to remove artifacting, and got the error: ArgumentError: [#inner]: same type please (in has float32\; r has int32)
<ClaudiusMaximus> matju: is that to be expected?
<ClaudiusMaximus> matju: (it's not what i expected..)
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<matju> ClaudiusMaximus: i posted about this kind of issue on gridflow-dev long ago and on pd-list even longer ago
<matju> ClaudiusMaximus: there wasn't so much of an answer
<matju> ClaudiusMaximus: i mean the whole casting issue... because it has *that* effect on GF's abstractions.
<matju> ClaudiusMaximus: in the meanwhile, don't cast to float; instead multiply by a large integer. For example I may be doing [# << 8] before and [# >> 8] later on.
<-- darsha has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
--> alx_ (~alx@Ottawa-HSE-ppp243404.sympatico.ca) has joined #dataflow
<mamalala> re alx_
<matju> alx_: do this: [netreceive 4242] -> [s pd]
<matju> alx_: and then run this shell command:
<matju> alx_: ruby -e 'require "socket"; sock=TCPSocket.open("localhost",4242); sock.puts("dsp 1;")'
<matju> alx_: that's it (in Ruby)
<matju> alx_: then embed that in a Ruby CGI.
<matju> alx_: you can also do it in Perl, but it's more complicated.
<matju> alx_: you can also call the shell command "netsend" from the CGI, but it's even more error-prone (escaping shell's special characters...)
<alx_> hi hi
<ClaudiusMaximus> matju: i'll bear that in mind, and i'll try that method, thanks
<alx_> matju: I'm off for dinner...biab


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