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<korayt> bbogart, deadlines are just overlapped
<bbogart> korayt, not to mention the whole Makeart festival at the same time. 
<_hc> bbogart  small doesn't always mean bad...
<bbogart> _hc, hell no. 
<bbogart> _hc, maybe even better... ;)
<korayt> bbogart, yes :-)
<_hc> bbogart: sometimes yes
<bbogart> (but i would not want to open the last question to 50 people probably)
<bbogart> maybe its a good time to talk about how to lay the thing out so we know where the missing parts are and so its documented, rather than embeded in IRC logs and notes and my brain. 
<_hc> so, how do you mean organize? and which ideas?   You mean how to breakdown the concepts in Pd into patches?
<bbogart> _hc, the whole PDDP effort...
<_hc> ah, ok
<_hc> yeah, that's currently quite amorphic
<_hc> well, here are some possible units:  tutorial patches, one-day workshop topic (a set of patches), a workThru project
<bbogart> _hc, concepts to patches is one part of that... Maybe I should start a list of parts? There is the all-about, referencecen, tutorials, teachers guide, curriculum (package of tutorials), .. 
<_hc> curriculum = tutorials + teacher's guide
<_hc> documentation = help + about
<bbogart> tutorials contain workThrough projects and high-level abstractions
<korayt> curriculum can be divided into 2, short term workshopes and long term courses
<_hc> another thing to think about is whether PDDP workshops will also work into semester long classes, and if so, how.  korayt and I talked about this briefly
<_hc> korayt: you read my mind ;)
<korayt> _hc, cool :-)
<korayt> today I started my 10 weeks long course, lets see how it will proceed
<_hc> do you have a syllabus posted anywhere?
<bbogart> I was thinking the length of the workshop would be defined by which and how many modules get chosen, starting at the intro and moving up. So they could be any length. Are you thinking of having all the modules for each level + a set of formal packages for particular lengths of time?
<korayt> _hc, some general content description, designed over PDDP page
<korayt> _hc,
<_hc> I think we should probably package workshops, then for courses (10 weeks, semester, whatever), we can build the courses from existing materials.  I think that teachers will more likely write their own syllabus for a course, but many people could just teach a workshop from the PDDP materials
<bbogart> ok, so what lengths are we aiming for? 1 week, 2 week, semester? or 2 day 1 week, semester?
<_hc> korayt: if you are working with the Arduino at the end, then I should have a bunch of stuff done by then.  I am working with David Cuartielles on some workshops at MediaLab Madrid at the end of April.
<korayt> _hc, thats right, long term courses might aim to introduce all the modules to the students, but students may go deeper into what they are interested
<_hc> I think the packaged PDDP things should be only the workshops
<_hc> courses can then be designed using whatever elements the prof decides to use
<bbogart> _hc, what do you mean?
<korayt> _hc, I know about that workshop, I think that would be great to use your works
<_hc> I don't think we should have PDDP Courses all pre-packaged, etc. like we would for the workshops
<korayt> _hc, like a puzzle?
<bbogart> _hc, ok, whats the difference betwene a course and a workshop?
<_hc> I think the ideas for how to teach a Pd course are currnetly  too amophic 
<_hc> at least from my perspective
<_hc> course = long, like semester, quarter, 10 week, etc.
<korayt> I think the diference is the time
<bbogart> I was imagining a kind of schedule with blocks missing, then you choose blocks from the PDDP library to fill in those spaces in the schedule. 
<korayt> and long term courses might be more student project based courses
<bbogart> yeah
<_hc> korayt: yeah, but also with more theoritcal content
<_hc> korayt: and outside reading, etc.
<bbogart> so which ones of packaged for PDDP, courses or workshops?
<_hc> workshops, like we have been talking about.  We've all taught workshops, we have a pretty good idea of how tehy should go
<_hc> korayt seems to be the first to teach a Pd course, so no one has any tested ideas or experience yet
<korayt> _hc, yes that is true, but project based course with outside readings sounds like an ideal course!!
<bbogart> _hc, ok, so the workshops are packages, but still built out of modules. Those same modules (and more) then get used to make an a la carte course by the instructor?
<_hc> mostly I am saying we don't really know about the courses yet so we should focus on teh workshops, which we do know about
<_hc> in terms of packaging, and standardizing ,etc
<korayt> _hc, you will also going to begin your long term course soon, right?
<_hc> I am in negotiations... summer at the earliest
<_hc> I am talking to two places
<korayt> _hc, hope they will happen
<_hc> korayt: me too... but that makes you the true pioneer!
<korayt> what I was thinking as a content of this 10 weeks long course is to focus on more students projects
<korayt> but first part of the course will be more advanced workshop
<_hc> yeah... hands-on is essential with technical classes
<korayt> and I am aiming to cover all 4 modules
<korayt> well sound is already there, but video-image, networks and Physical Media
<bbogart> very cool korayt
<_hc> I'd like to teach Pd as a programming language, so go into ideas behind dataflow, proper form for writing maintainable code, how to work collaboratively, etc
<korayt> and those modules can be constructed through workshop materials
<_hc> yeah, that should definitely help
<_hc> so back to organizing PDDP
<bbogart> Ok, I keep using the term "modules" wrong in the PDDP context. Maybe our four sections could be called themes, and each stage (level) of each theme is a module?
<korayt> _hc, cool, then long term courses also can be deffrent regarding to the students
<korayt> so, sound, VIDEO and IMAGE, Networks, Physical Media are themes?
<bbogart> korayt, yeah, just a semantic change. 
<_hc> what are modules then?
<korayt> I was thinking more those four as modules
<bbogart> _hc a theme at a particular level, for our into class well only have one level (intro) so there will be one module per theme
<bbogart> korayt, I just keep thinking of a module as a packages tutorial, rather than as a 1/4th of one)
<korayt> bbogart, i see
<bbogart> a medium term course could be something like S1, I1, N1, P1, S2, I2, N2, P2 etc.. The "sections" as columns, the levels (stages) as rows, and the "modules" as cells. 
<bbogart> maybe S1,I1,N1,P1 are all one "module"...
<bbogart> since we're aiming for integration...
<bbogart> or a module is defined as the units a workthrough project needs to be complete. 
<korayt> teachers shoul be abit free to construct the modules regarding to the students level+ interest
<bbogart> A sound/Image workthrough would be a module of two units (S1& I1)
<korayt> S1, I3, N1, P3 can be also a module
<bbogart> For a particular workThrough it would noe make sense to remove one section it depends on... 
<bbogart> korayt, for students with advanced image and physical media experience...
<bbogart> korayt, I don't know how there could be a workThrough for that though. 
<korayt> bbogart, I dont know either at the moment
<matju> (ot)
<bbogart> S1I1N1P1 could be one "tutorial" made of one or two "workThrough" projects Each part of a workshop covered by a single workThrough is a tutorial?
<mamalala> S1I1N1P looks like l337 sp33k ;-)
<korayt> if the workThroughs will be there with different levels, like S1, S2..., teacher can choose from those workThroughs to construct the module for specific course
<bbogart> mamalala, yeah it does... 
<bbogart> korayt, so that one worlthrough project needs multiple levels of complexity?
<korayt> yes, like a basic sound workThrough, or advanced sound workThrough
<bbogart> yes, I'm thinking those would be seperate, Having a different workThrough with a different level for each "section" would mean many more workthroughs, rather than just one workthrough per stage.. (or two for workshops with only SI or NP)
<korayt> exp, if students are not that much into I, then you can have I1, just to give an idea to them what they can also do with video, but if they want more challenge in sound, then teacher can choose S3
<korayt> ofcourse, workThroughs are the ones that would support teaching
<bbogart> korayt, yeah, but if workThroughs span multiple levels, then the teachers need to always think up ones to suit that need (may not be a bad thing) but if the WorkThrough is level consistant, then you just pick and choose WorkThroughs rather than customizing them for a specific context...
<korayt> bbogart, I was just thinking like when a teacher would costruct the content for the course, then regarding to level, teacher can have multiple workThroughs in different part of the course
<korayt> bbogart, in any case we will need lots of workThroughs
<bbogart> korayt, yes, of course the teacher is always free to add more content, but I wonder if we should arrange our work around that, or start with the simplicity of Workthroughs only spanning one level...
<bbogart> say your PI students take a class, they could learn about SN and ignore the PI stuff, rouding out thier knowledge. Eventually they all get to level 4 and now they learn something new in audio as well, 
<korayt> bbogart, alright, if we will have one level workThroughs, then we can see how workThroughs might go further
<bbogart> korayt, they are labour intensive as well, I'm not sure the best way to make them go as long as possible (as in be as useful as possible for the time they tale to create)
<korayt> bbogart, for the long run, we still might need different level workThroughs
<bbogart> As long as they are contributed by those who need them. There are many combinations for workshops with multiple levels. I think its something like 4^3 if we have three levels. :(
<korayt> bbogart, right, and 3 levels even might just we right amount of levels.
<bbogart> 4^3 = 64 potencial workThroughs 
<korayt> bbogart, sounds alot:-)
<bbogart> indeed
<bbogart> I think it makes sense that each part (S1 or P2) is a "unit"
<korayt> but if we can do this in time, at the end there will be really valuable teaching material
<bbogart> for sure
<korayt> ok, so S1 is a unite of module S1,I1,N1,P1
<bbogart> more or less yeah, I'm writing it out here, lemem paste what I have
<bbogart> Lexicon:
<bbogart> A unit is a part of a module.
<bbogart> A module will contain 2 or 4 units. 
<bbogart> Each module is covered by a single WorkThrough
<bbogart> Each unit in a module covers a different theme.
<bbogart> hey, I just had an idea.
<bbogart> since the difficulty of a workthrough is not based on complexity, but on the high-level abstractions so the same workthough would work for multiple level, just be removing/adding the high-level abstractions!
<korayt> so with the level of abstractions, we can have different levels of workthroughs
<korayt> from 1 workthrough
<bbogart> yeah... I'm not sure how it would work practically in terms of flow, but its much easier than making a P3I3N1S1 workthrough. 
<bbogart> from scratch
<korayt> that might work
<korayt> you are proposing to have a workthrough for a module
<_hc> whoa... step awat for a bit and you two have invented a workshop description language! 
<_hc> I have to dive back into the paper, ttyl
<korayt> I was mostly saying workthroughs for units
<bbogart> korayt, yeah... only problem with that is if we have an audience with no sound interest, then what happens... since it would be hard to take the S1 out. 
<korayt> _hc, good luck!!
<bbogart> workthroughs for units??
<_hc> thanks, bye...
<-- _hc has quit ()
<korayt> _hc bye Hans
<korayt> like if the course will have S1P1I1 as content
<bbogart> yeah... Not so easy to make a project where a whole aspect of it is removable... 
<korayt> when you have the S1 content, a workthrough can support S1
<bbogart> take your project, what is left without the sound?? not much.. maybe its not bad to force people to cover all those areas...
<korayt> yeaj
<korayt> yeah, true
<korayt> I guess at the end students will choose where they can go deeper,
<bbogart> I guess our whole reason to have these themes is to make interdisiplinary work that goes between them, not possible if parts get excluded. I'd vote for keeping modules intact, unless people really hate it...
<korayt> but teachers should introduce whole
<bbogart> they can always tune out, and often do...
<bbogart> ok, here is another lexicon:
<bbogart> A unit is a part of a module.
<bbogart> A module will contain 2 or 4 units. 
<bbogart> Each unit in a module covers a different theme.
<bbogart> Each module is covered by a single WorkThrough
<bbogart> A workThrough is a project that covers at least two themes.
<bbogart> A theme is either SINP (Sound, Image, Networks, Physical Media)
<korayt> ok I confused:-)
<bbogart> :(
<korayt> wasnt SINP a module?
<korayt> aha ok
<korayt> ok
<korayt> now it is clear
<korayt> sorry
<korayt> yeao
<bbogart> which part was confusing?
<korayt> this sounds good
<korayt> ok I confused modeul with theme
<korayt> module is actually constructed through out theme
<korayt> S1N2 can be a module
<korayt> but SINP is a theme
<korayt> I liked our new workshop terms
<bbogart> S I N P are 4 themes yeah. 
<korayt> S is a theme
<bbogart> I think it really lays out how the structure would work. 
<korayt> but S1 is a unit
<bbogart> yeah exactly!!
<korayt> I think at the end this will be a really handy documentation
<bbogart> hopefully it will not take years! ;)
<korayt> :-)
<bbogart> well too many years... ;)
<korayt> i will begin to use this new structure next week
<bbogart> I think I'm out of energy. I'll post these notes to the pd-list and put it on the wiki. 
<korayt> actually i really had a difficulty to describe the content today
<bbogart> anything else you wanted to discuss? 
<korayt> ok Ben
<korayt> well, take care!!
<korayt> I think we done good work today
<bbogart> good luck with the course, I'm really looking forward to hearing about it. 
<korayt> do you want to say anything else?
<bbogart> I think we did well too today. 
<bbogart> I'm good, all in the notes. 
<korayt> thanks
<bbogart> seeya
<korayt> good luck for your gig!!
<korayt> see you
<bbogart> thanks!
<bbogart> bye

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