[2:00pm] korayt joined the chat room.
[2:01pm] korayt: hello everybody
[2:01pm] msp joined the chat room.
[2:03pm] _hc: korayt: hey
[2:03pm] bbogart joined the chat room.
[2:03pm] _hc: msp: hey
[2:03pm] korayt: _hc, hello
[2:03pm] msp: _hc: hi there!
[2:03pm] bbogart: Hey all, I'll be a little slow at the start, gotta eat lunch at the same time.
[2:04pm] bbogart: hi all
[2:04pm] _hc: hey
[2:04pm] korayt: bbogart, hello
[2:04pm] hklv joined the chat room.
[2:08pm] bbogart: hey Marc! (hi Koray, Miller, and Hans)
[2:08pm] bbogart: Hans, did you get a chance to look at the workshop description I sent you?
[2:09pm] matju: msp: hi mr. P?quette
[2:09pm] matju: msp: 1st question: how will Pd support Spanish ?
[2:10pm] wip: normand, 1000 merci. i will order some parts today 
[2:12pm] msp: matju: hmm, you mean Castillian?
[2:12pm] matju: msp: you mean Castellano ?
[2:12pm] stffn: Hey. Is the meeting agenda the same as it was ment to be on the 13th, or am i missing something?
[2:12pm] matju: msp: i mean Californian-Mexican "Castellano"
[2:13pm] _hc: stffn: yes, I think that's the plan
[2:13pm] matju: msp: and i mean i18n in general
[2:13pm] _hc: bbogart: I've been totally slammed, so I haven't looked at it yet, got an email backlog, will look now
[2:13pm] stffn: _hc: ok, thanks.
[2:13pm] msp: matju: habria que alguien le haga...
[2:13pm] bbogart: well since I was not there on the 13th, so you tell me what happend!
[2:14pm] msp: bbogart:  me either... 
[2:14pm] korayt: well, we postponed the meeting today
[2:14pm] matju: msp: what's "habria" ?
[2:14pm] bbogart: so there was not real discussion last week?
[2:14pm] minDscrm left the chat room. (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[2:14pm] _hc: bbogart: ah yes, I did read that
[2:15pm] _hc: bbogart: no, not really, everyone was distracted, and we all missed you too dearly 
[2:15pm] bbogart: haha!
[2:15pm] msp: matju: conditional of "haber"... I think.  Anyway, onto today's topic...
[2:15pm] korayt:                          
[2:15pm] bbogart: do I somehow keep us on topic? 
[2:16pm] _hc: so last we were talking about teaching philosophy and experience
[2:16pm] korayt: matju, "haber" means news
[2:16pm] bbogart: yes, I'm looking at my notes now: http://www.puredata.info/dev/pddp/BBogartsMeetingNotes20051206
[2:17pm] bbogart: I don't see any comments on that page, anyhow have an opinion that did not get resolved in these notes?
[2:17pm] bbogart: you here Frank?
[2:18pm] fbar joined the chat room.
[2:18pm] bbogart: whoa weird
[2:18pm] fbar: hi, sorry a bit late
[2:18pm] bbogart: fbar, hey!
[2:18pm] fbar: hi ben and all.
[2:18pm] korayt: hello
[2:18pm] _hc: fbar: hey
[2:18pm] bbogart: fbar, just thinking of you... want to rekindle the discussion about abstraction where you reffered to stuff Miller said? (since he is here today)
[2:20pm] fbar: Hallo Miller. Last time I was quoting you according to the (yet unreleased) interview in the pd-graz Book, where you talked about the way, that Pd is not a metaphorical kind of software like the Microsoft/Apple Desktop is.
[2:20pm] bbogart: and if everyone can take a look at my notes and flag any issues
[2:22pm] fbar: But actually from my workshop last week I also have a very practical remark to do.
[2:22pm] _hc: let's here it !
[2:22pm] msp: fbar: ... or at least that I was trying not to push metaphors on people who might have their own already.
[2:22pm] fbar: Pd's objects, messages, numberboxes etc. all look too much alike from a distance.
[2:23pm] fbar: The students always were asking: "Is this a numberbox or an object?"
[2:23pm] bbogart: msp, this is really interesting in terms of teaching philosophy, for example I teach a metashorical approach to art creation using PD.
[2:24pm] korayt: bbogart, that sounds interesting
[2:24pm] _hc: fbar: I have the same problem when using Max, I think its also an issue of familiarity
[2:24pm] msp: fbar: That's something else, which is that I tried very hard to use as few pixels as possible.
[2:24pm] bbogart: fbar, hmm you mean the difference between a word as symbol "tgl" and the visual representation [X]
[2:25pm] fbar: msp: yes, however it gets worse, if you use a big font like 24.
[2:25pm] bbogart: msp, to put the thing in context we were talking about abstraction in teaching, bottom up vs top down
[2:25pm] msp: That's true... when I'm projecting Pd live I usually just drop the resolution of the display.
[2:26pm] fbar: msp: hm, sounds a bit like a workaround. 
[2:26pm] bbogart: we eneded up deciding that we should try and do both, so each tutorial will include both a high-level abstractions and low-level internal to control it.
[2:26pm] bbogart: for those who have not yet checked it out there is a PDF of my metaphorical networks lecture (www.ekran.org/pd)
[2:27pm] fbar: ... but maybe lets talk about GUI enhancements another time.
[2:27pm] _hc: fbar: yes, that's a whole other topic for sure
[2:28pm] matju: bbogart: the problem with associating a metaphor to each concept is that it's more difficult to associate several metaphors with the same concept. that is why GF is more abstract than other video plugins
[2:28pm] bbogart: the whole language vs abstract symbol is an interesting discussion indeed, for another time probably.
[2:28pm] _hc: bbogart: I have been thinking about the top-down, then bottom-up approach and I really like it, it gives people satisfaction of getting something working, then exposure to the nuts and bolts
[2:28pm] matju: bbogart: GF separates mechanism and metaphor
[2:29pm] bbogart: matju, a "metaphorical network" is a chain of concepts related by metaphor. (metaphor in the literary theory sense here)
[2:29pm] matju: msp: how should i18n+l10n be done on pd so that you accept those things in your pd ?
[2:30pm] matju: bbogart: ... and??
[2:30pm] bbogart: _hc, for sure, and in solves at least part of the problem of multi layers of abstraction within each abstraction
[2:31pm] bbogart: matju, are you sure you mean metaphor in gridflow and now abstraction or symbolism?
[2:31pm] _hc: bbogart: and I think its important to teach people the value of using existing code, standing on the shoulders of giants, speaking of metaphors
[2:31pm] matju: bbogart: what i mean is that if you have a class [#brightness] instead of [# +] then the classname suggests that it should be used for changing brightness, and possibly only for doing so, such that it doesn't seem appropriate to use it to translate coordinates
[2:32pm] bbogart: _hc, wow, encouraging code/patch sharing as an aspect of the curriculum is a great idea...in a way patching for other people than just yourself in isolation...
[2:33pm] _hc: I was thinking pixelTANGO and rradical as the starting places
[2:33pm] bbogart: matju, I gotcha now, Indeed I agree. brightness as a subset of adding.
[2:33pm] fbar: In my last workshop I actually was using a very metaphorical metaphor: The topic was physical modelling with masses and spring like in pmpd and I did one particle as a Gem-square textured with a Super Mario image, the other sprite was textured with a Luigi image, Mario's brother, and the abstractions were called "mario.pd" and "luigi.pd". The students liked it. 
[2:33pm] msp: matju:  I haven't had time to think deeply about it.  I think names of objects and messages should probably stay as they are (because they're sometimes associated with filenames), but that "comments" could be made localizable.
[2:34pm] bbogart: _hc, somehow I see both pixelTANGO and RRADICAL as kinds of meta-patches or sub-applications. I think the designs would be different if they were made for this idea of top-down meeting bottom up in the process
[2:36pm] _hc: well, they are a nice starting place because newbies can get stuff working quickly
[2:36pm] bbogart: fbar, great example Frank, indeed naming of both abstractions and subpatches is key to student understanding. My PD intro contains an object [pd this is an object]
[2:36pm] msp: _hc and bbogart:  I imagine you're talking about making a series of examples that would come in two "layers", right?
[2:37pm] fbar: bbogart: Actually we later weren't talking about particles anymore instead we were taling about "let Mario go there and jump" etc.
[2:37pm] bbogart: _hc, that is true for sure, I can;t speak for RRADICAL but for pixelTANGO the peices work better with each other than custom patching. The interface between high and low-level is quite awkward.
[2:37pm] fbar: I didn't think of workshops when doing RRADical,  otherwise I wouldn't have used any externals.
[2:38pm] _hc: msp and bbogart: ideally there would be mix between the high-level and low level.
[2:38pm] bbogart: msp, more like there is a problem to solve and you solve it on two levels, play a video is requires the high-level peice, and sending it timeing bangs is the low-level part. These both happen in the same patch side by side
[2:38pm] _hc: so that someone can start with highlevel and get something working, then make changes on the low level to see what happens
[2:39pm] bbogart: For example I wrote a little approach to an intro workshop:
[2:39pm] fbar: "see what happens" is important: It is much easier to explain abstraction arguments with GOP patches, where you [loadbang]-[f $1] a numberbox.
[2:39pm] bbogart: * Image
[2:39pm] bbogart:   - Loading a still image (high-level, window vs file hidden)
[2:39pm] bbogart:   - Using a numberbox to control the size of the image.()
[2:39pm] bbogart:   - Loading a video clip (probably easiest with PDP?)
[2:39pm] bbogart:   - Using number box to scrub video
[2:39pm] bbogart:   - Using metro to control clip
[2:40pm] bbogart: msp, that reminds me, it would be grant if abstraction args could be named rather than only numbers. with 10 args its pretty ugly, but something like [abst fish=10] calling [f fish] is much more readable.
[2:40pm] alx1 joined the chat room.
[2:41pm] fbar: bbogart: thomas grill wrote an object for this kind of key=value arguments, IIRC.
[2:41pm] alx1: matju, allo je suis au mac 
[2:41pm] dyno joined the chat room.
[2:41pm] msp: bbogart:  hmm.  Perhaps a construct like ${fish} (so as to be able to utter just plain "fish" too).
[2:41pm] bbogart: fbar, whats it called
[2:42pm] msp: bbogart:  I'm thinking about trying to extend the "$1" mechanism anyway.
[2:42pm] fbar: bbogart and msp: It's called "absatt" and in CVS.
[2:42pm] bbogart: msp, indeed. Another workshop issue is patching style, which does vary a lot, and varies depending on the patch and the problem one is trying to solve.
[2:43pm] msp: fbar: as a patch, or does one download devel and search for "absatt"?
[2:43pm] bbogart: I patch totally differently for other people in workshops than myself. Actually to think about it I should use way more abstraction and not put all the implimentation up there for all to see (and get confused by)
[2:44pm] fbar: msp: absattr is just an external, build with flext.
[2:44pm] bbogart: so in my "image" example above the first part is: "show a picture"
[2:44pm] fbar: msp: It works with standard Pd, too.
[2:45pm] bbogart: this uses a high-level abstraction say [showpicture] and hides all the window and object and loading stuff from the user. It has a button to open a picture file and that picture file shows up in a window on the screen.
[2:45pm] msp: fbar:  so it doesn't allow one to say "s ${fish}" in an object box, for instance...
[2:46pm] fbar: I just build it and looked at the help file. It works like this: You create special arguments that start with @, like [abstraction 1 2 @key].
[2:46pm] korayt: bbogart, are you making this patch in real time, or are you using a ready patch and talk about it?
[2:46pm] bbogart: Then the low-level part is to control one parameter visible in the GUI from outside through a number box or something low-level
[2:46pm] bbogart: korayt, ready made in this case
[2:47pm] korayt: what I experienced, students learn more when I make patches together with them
[2:47pm] bbogart: I think the abstractions don't get opened in the intro workshops, that happens in the more advanced ones
[2:47pm] fbar: Then inside of "abstraction" there is an object, [absattr] which can output the @key value by sending it a message: "get key". You can also store lists this way: [abstraction @key1 1 2 3 @key2 a b c]
[2:48pm] msp: fbar: I get it.. a bit like Max's "voicebank" but with a "@" mechanism added.
[2:48pm] bbogart: korayt, yes they do, but you want to give them as much creative freedom right off the bat or they will not care how much they learn. (or will simply not remember it)
[2:48pm] fbar: msp: I don't know voicebank, but absattr looks quite easy to use.
[2:48pm] bbogart: korayt, Its part of HC's idea, in PD we have a tendency to make everything from scratch rather than using what other people have made.
[2:49pm] korayt: bbogart, you are right, thats also how i constract my workshop
[2:49pm] bbogart: korayt, if you only do bottom up then you are only teaching "implimentation" I think that should come after "creation"
[2:50pm] korayt: bbogart, as we talked previosly it should include both
[2:50pm] bbogart: The abstraction is a short-cut to functionality. It stops getting used when the user knows enough low-level stuff to approach the problem it solves
[2:51pm] korayt: bbogart, however, high level ones can be good examples and maybe the ones to talk about how it has been constracted
[2:51pm] bbogart: So we introduce one by one low-level objects to control the high-level pay-off
[2:51pm] korayt: but we shouldnt kill the fun as well
[2:51pm] oskude: as i started to learn pd (by myself), i copy and pasted a lot from the examples...
[2:52pm] _hc: korayt: I think learning by doing is essential, but I think that we can start with high-level building blocks, existing objects
[2:52pm] bbogart: korayt, but the abstraction does not get opened until the students are ready for that, which may be a while.
[2:52pm] korayt: bbogart, true, it always gets boring till I make them get sound from soc~
[2:52pm] bbogart: oskude, if the parts you copied came in a user-friendly abstraction how would you feel about it?
[2:53pm] bbogart: _hc, I think it should be about 50/50. half-way through the whole curriculim (not workshop) the students are already building their own versions of high-level abstractions rather than us providing them.
[2:54pm] korayt: _hc, there might be a path to use both high level and low level balanced together
[2:54pm] oskude: bbogart: i like anything thats user-friendly, but i cant remember if i copy and pasted subpatches
[2:54pm] _hc: korayt: right, so you can start with high-level objects, like a basic synth, and have them basic it together with a volume control and an output, and quickly be making nice sounds, then you could delve into the pre-built objects
[2:54pm] bbogart: hey, what if one of the assignments is to create a high-level abstraction for the students in an intro course? Or a problem a student in that class is working on?
[2:54pm] bbogart: oskude, not many subpatches... was it hard to figure out what parts to cut out?
[2:55pm] _hc: bbogart: yes, we should cover building their own objects too, that's essential, but they could build their own objects from the high-level objects even.  The basic idea is that I don't think we have to go down to the level of only compiled-C objects to teach Pd.
[2:55pm] korayt: _hc, that might work really.
[2:56pm] bbogart: its like a growing process, the abstraction is like a fertalizer that makes it easier for complex structures to grow around it.
[2:56pm] oskude: bbogart: its so many years back  but i think i understanded subpatches quite quick (so i understaneded to follow inlets and outlets)
[2:56pm] matju: alx1: allo
[2:56pm] bbogart: _hc, very nice, super-high level objects made of other high-level objects.
[2:56pm] matju: alx1: besoin d'aide ?
[2:56pm] _hc: the basic concepts, like dataflow, bang, inlets, outlets, hot-left-inlet, messages, audio rate, control rate, etc. etc. these apply to all objects
[2:57pm] alx1: matju, peut-etre, c'est comme refaire l'oeuvre...je vais savoir bientot
[2:57pm] matju: bbogart: the brightness vs addition was part of the section on Polymorphism in my talk about GridFlow, at both Piksel05 and PdConvention
[2:57pm] fbar: High-level objects might also be a purely practical need. E.g. I used a gem-abstraction to rotate the scene with a mouse, zoom in and out etc. which is quite complicated, but useful to allow students to see a scene from various sides.
[2:57pm] fbar: I didn't explain this abstraction at all!
[2:58pm] bbogart: matju, I've not read it yet...
[2:58pm] matju: bbogart: ah, thought you had attended the one at Piksel maybe
[2:58pm] _hc: fbar: and you probably didn't explain the C code for Pd either  
[2:59pm] fbar: _hc: no. 
[2:59pm] bbogart: matju, indeed I had, but I can't remember a thing you said... I just remember "look"
[2:59pm] korayt: fbar, at least it might be good to talk about the logic of how that abstraction is constracted
[2:59pm] korayt: fbar, not maybe deeply what each objects do
[3:00pm] oskude: bbogart: but i can remember GOP was (atleast for me) a little hard to understand (but now that i know how "simple" that is...)
[3:00pm] bbogart: fbar, indeed you don't need to describe everything, they will take things appart themselves.
[3:00pm] _hc: fbar: I guess my point I think that we don't need to set the compiled C objects as some baseline of what Pd is for newbies
[3:00pm] bbogart: another lecture had a patch that said "don't open this it'll just confuse you!" it was one of the early page-flipping abstractions
[3:00pm] bbogart: _hc. I agree.
[3:01pm] _hc: I think it can be portrayed as something with many many layers, and every box has something behind it if you want to look
[3:01pm] bbogart: oskude, indeed, hard to understand to make, but not hard to use! 
[3:01pm] bbogart: oskude, as an end user
[3:01pm] bbogart: _hc, that is a good point. I have a question for all of you
[3:02pm] bbogart: How many levels of abstraction do you tend to use? I've rarely used more than three.
[3:02pm] _hc: bbogart: counting C?
[3:02pm] _hc:                          
[3:02pm] korayt: not more than two even
[3:02pm] bbogart: _hc, no, as in named abstractions nested.
[3:03pm] oskude: i use max 2 (but i do only small things)
[3:03pm] _hc: [nqpoly4] has more than three I thin
[3:03pm] _hc: k
[3:03pm] bbogart: korayt, indeed I think we tend to put a lot of complex implientation into one chunk and drop it in, without making an abstraction for each part of the problem
[3:04pm] oskude: i have now started to do that bbogart
[3:04pm] oskude: i have like "videoplay" "videorecord" ...
[3:04pm] bbogart: My example is: [tixel-array] made ip of [tixel] each containing [roll-over] for a touchscreen application
[3:05pm] korayt: bbogart. yes I think we do
[3:05pm] _hc: for my solitude patch, there are at least 7 or 8 layeras
[3:05pm] bbogart: How about abstractions designed for implimentation [like roll-over] solves a technical problem, or application specific like [process-video] or [find-motion]
[3:05pm] bbogart: _hc, damn.
[3:06pm] _hc: I like to encapsulate a lot, I think it makes the code more manageable, so I have a lot of small objects
[3:06pm] bbogart: _hc, very good style. 
[3:06pm] bbogart: I hope they use high-level messages between each other also? 
[3:07pm] matju: bbogart: you only remembered "look", you mean the global variable? you know how superficial that is? 
[3:07pm] bbogart: matju, indeed, it just stuck in my mind. 
[3:07pm] matju: alx1: tu peux m'appeler au videographe au poste 13
[3:07pm] matju: alx1: mais la, je vais fumer
[3:08pm] hklv: _hc: Are you using that many abstractions to build libraries, or mostly to organize your patches?
[3:08pm] alx1: matju, quel #?
[3:08pm] alx1: matju, ok
[3:08pm] _hc: hklv: both
[3:09pm] _hc: hklv: I often find that when I write an object for one project, I want to reuse it later
[3:09pm] _hc: hklv: plus I use others, like [nqpoly4]
[3:10pm] hklv: _hc: does it happen often enough (using an already written abstraction for new projects)?
[3:11pm] _hc: hklv: yes, because I often work on similar projects, i.e. robots or networked multi-channel sound, for example
[3:12pm] _hc: so I have robot objects and networking objects
[3:14pm] stffn: I think two layers is enought to explain the idea of abstraction in a workshop situation. Combiend with a nother case that shows the idea of reuseing code, the "students" will understand both the abtraction side and the re-useablity side of it. Allso, the layers only need to be the two upper levels. I some situations the lower of the to levels might be the one containing compiled C objetc. In another situation, or another workshop with diffrent students, it m
[3:14pm] _hc: stffn: yeah, keep it simple to start with
[3:14pm] dyno is now known as dyno-vadrouille.
[3:14pm] bbogart: _hc, how much time do you spend working metaphorically (attach the robot drum to loud sounds in a signal) or thinking about impliemtation (scaling the output of fiddle so that it overlaps with the dynamic range of the pnematic controller)
[3:15pm] matju: alx1: 514.521.2116,13
[3:16pm] _hc: its hard to say how much time I spend on either, but my approach is generally to abstract everything to a high-level interface that has the controls I am interested in.  Then I have a platform that I can quickly experiment and play with to come up with the desired results
[3:16pm] _hc: but I probably spend more time on the low-level...
[3:16pm] bbogart: _hc, sounds like a good approach. Somehow I would like these workshops to allow the students to spent more time creating than implimenting (solving technical problems)
[3:17pm] bbogart: I guess low-level always takes longer.
[3:17pm] korayt: bbogart, I will be again on the they lean when they implement side
[3:17pm] _hc: yes, but it has to happen to start with.  Then we can make libraries, so others don't have to deal with the low-level if they dont' want to
[3:17pm] korayt: learn
[3:17pm] fbar: bbogart: it depends on the kind of workshop: Teaching Pd involves teaching implementing stuff in Pd, of course, and that can take enough time.
[3:18pm] hklv: a metaphor is simply a peudo-code raised to a higher level of abstraction.
[3:18pm] bbogart: hklv, your probably right. I would define a metaphor as a cross connection between two symbols.
[3:18pm] _hc: so the question now is how to do implement these ideas?
[3:19pm] fbar: hklv: ... and Pd is working pseudo code with abstractions.
[3:19pm] bbogart: so many ideas...
[3:19pm] _hc: it seems to me that the very first thing would be using very basic objects [osc~ 250]--[dac~]
[3:19pm] korayt: so so many:-)
[3:19pm] bbogart: maybe each student wants to do such different things (at the high level) that the only thing they have in common is the implimentation.
[3:19pm] fbar: _hc: [hello world(--[print]
[3:20pm] _hc: fbar: I guess I am an audio guy at heart, so [osc~]-[dac~] is my helloworld
[3:20pm] korayt: _hc, i second that:-)
[3:20pm] fbar: _hc: It's a different (hello)world. 
[3:20pm] _hc: doooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
[3:20pm] _hc: the sound of a sine wave... 
[3:20pm] bbogart: _hc, why not top-down for the first thing they do "wow I'm playing a video" rather than "great another test-tone...."
[3:21pm] _hc: I mean THE very first thing, like open up Pd, and make a tone, two objects, one connection
[3:21pm] _hc: or like [metro]'s banging [bng] for visual feedback
[3:22pm] fbar: bbogart: I think, you have to do both the "wow!"-stuff and the boring "I don't get this"-stuff like execution order. It's good to be able to mix both to not loose the audience.
[3:22pm] _hc: [bang(--[bng] might be the most Pd-ish helloworld 
[3:22pm] bbogart left the chat room. (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
[3:22pm] oskude: the first i did with pd was go through the examples and tweak here and there...
[3:23pm] hklv: bbogart: I just read your meeting notes. I'm pretty sure that students benefits more with a project based approach. They can dream about their ultimate patch while they spend years learning about PD. Of course, this ultimate project should be extended forever, and divided into lots of sub-projects...
[3:23pm] bbogart joined the chat room.
[3:23pm] hklv: bbogart: I just sent you this:
[3:23pm] hklv: bbogart: I just read your meeting notes. I'm pretty sure that students benefits more with a project based approach. They can dream about their ultimate patch while they spend years learning about PD. Of course, this ultimate project should be extended forever, and divided into lots of sub-projects...
[3:24pm] bbogart left the chat room. ("Leaving")
[3:25pm] oskude: if i ever would teach pd, i think i would start with cool examples (to show what can be made with pd) and then start with "hello world"... (but as i said i never teached pd 
[3:25pm] hklv: (ben should get a better Internet access)
[3:25pm] bbogart joined the chat room.
[3:25pm] fbar: oskude: I did it this way.
[3:26pm] bbogart: what the heck was that
[3:26pm] matju: oskude: starting with cool examples is important because it fosters interest and interest is required for adequate learning
[3:26pm] fbar: bbogart: a "netsplit", I think.
[3:26pm] hklv: bbogart: di you get my message?
[3:26pm] bbogart: fbar, whoa
[3:26pm] bbogart: hklv, last thing I got was: <bbogart> _hc, why not top-down for the first thing they do "wow I'm playing a video" rather than "great another test-tone...."
[3:26pm] matju: fbar: if it had been a netsplit, bbogart's quit message wouldn't have been "Leaving", it would have been the hostname of the splitting server
[3:26pm] fbar: bbogart: black hole. Or worm hole? 
[3:27pm] fbar: matju: There was a netsplit, then a netjoin, then Ben left by hand and rejoined manually.
[3:27pm] bbogart: fbar, I'm starting to wonder if we should do these on freenode...
[3:27pm] hklv: bbogart: ok, here it is again (sorry for the noise) : I just read your meeting notes. I'm pretty sure that students benefits more with a project based approach. They can dream about their ultimate patch while they spend years learning about PD. Of course, this ultimate project should be extended forever, and divided into lots of sub-projects...
[3:27pm] brendanb: hi folks the times I've taught Pd intros I allways start with awhy you should be interested example patch and then go to the bogart tutorials.  Seems to work better and better.
[3:28pm] bbogart: hklv, I was just thinking about the same thing...
[3:29pm] bbogart: If we have a project based approach then its 1000 times easier to design content for it, since we know what the students want.
[3:29pm] fbar: this workshop, I did the hard stuff in the morning, when everyone was still too sleepy to refuse the math, then the fun stuff (sound, Gem etc.) was shortly advertised before the noon break, and afternoon we did have fun.
[3:29pm] bbogart: The idea was to have modules so that each module could fit into some aspect of the project
[3:30pm] bbogart: fbar, I think fun should be interdispursed with the technical detail stuff
[3:30pm] _hc: fbar: wow, and all day workshop! how long was it?
[3:30pm] fbar: _hc: It was a 3-day workshop, so I did this 3 times. 
[3:30pm] bbogart: brendanb, hi
[3:30pm] _hc: fbar: americans are too weak to sit in a room for more than 2 hours 
[3:31pm] korayt: I have generally 1 week ws, everyday from 10-16
[3:31pm] fbar: bbogart: Some technical detail stuff just takes a lot of time and requires concentration. I would have loved to explain hot and cold inlets in a more fun way...
[3:31pm] _hc: korayt: with a lunch break?
[3:31pm] bbogart: fbar, I agree...
[3:31pm] korayt: _hc yeah 45min
[3:32pm] bbogart: _hc, same here at Interaccess, about 5 hours plus a break
[3:32pm] _hc: I'll never forget this talk I gave in Japan, the whole thing was 4.5 hours with no break, and everyone stayed for the whole thing, and were mostly still paying attention by the end!
[3:32pm] _hc: (I tlaked for 50 minutes, then others went on)
[3:33pm] bbogart: hehe!
[3:33pm] fbar: Actually of course the workshop ended with fun stuff: I demonstrated some things, that are possible now with what the students learned. It was filmed: http://footils.org/images/frankspatch1.mov
[3:33pm] bbogart: wow, I have to check that out when I'm at work.
[3:33pm] _hc: fbar: nice
[3:33pm] fbar: bbogart: It's just some seconds, 1.2MB.
[3:34pm] bbogart: fbar, ah, maybe i can handle that. 
[3:35pm] bbogart: so I have another question, how do we give purpose to these tutorials that goes beyond just learning more and the abstract notion of people able to do what the examples do...
[3:35pm] _hc: hmm, maybe the project-based tutorial would help there
[3:35pm] korayt: fbar, it looks and sound nice
[3:35pm] korayt: btw
[3:35pm] korayt: I convinced art academy
[3:35pm] korayt: now
[3:36pm] korayt: we will have 10 weeks course
[3:36pm] bbogart: _hc, I mean real purpose, something that is important to the students...
[3:36pm] korayt: everyweek 3 hours, it is a continuity of 1 week intense ws
[3:36pm] fbar: korayt: wow, that's a lot of time to really work Pd.
[3:36pm] korayt:        fbar    
[3:36pm] korayt: fbar, it will be project base course
[3:36pm] _hc: korayt: wow, just on Pd?
[3:37pm] korayt: students will have larger scale projects
[3:37pm] hklv: fbar: is it better to show the fun stuff at the end than at the beginning or in the middle?
[3:37pm] korayt: and first haf of 3 hours will be pd lecture
[3:37pm] bbogart: hklv, interdispersed, altrenate between fun and no so much...
[3:37pm] korayt: than second half will be individual tutorin
[3:37pm] _hc: hklv: I think it should be interspirsed
[3:38pm] hklv: in a progression mode, like fun, funnier, funniest?
[3:38pm] fbar: hklv: It depends on the students. When they look bored, do some fun stuff soon. And an old writer's rule: People remember the beginning and the end of a story, so what to do at these two is the most important decicion.
[3:40pm] fbar: korayt: It's really cool to have so much time, because then you can do a lot of the detailed stuff in Pd, but still have a focus on that bigger project and not loose sight of the "Why".
[3:40pm] korayt: fbar, thats right
[3:40pm] fbar: korayt: however it can also be a bit dangerous. It is possible to skip some of the basics, if they don't immediatly help with the project.
[3:41pm] brendanb: Isn't the purpose of the tutorials synomynous with the 'purpose' of pd itself?  The weird possibilities of 'real' 'time' inputing/processing/outputting of transformed data.
[3:41pm] korayt: fbar,I should do some sort of structure till the end of January
[3:41pm] fbar: But skipping basics might not be a good thing to do.
[3:41pm] hklv: fbar: so I suppose that you have a bank of cool patches that you can show at critical moments (like when students are falling alseep)?
[3:41pm] bbogart: brendanb, hmmm that sound pretty good to me...
[3:42pm] korayt: fbar, they already got 1 week pd workshop, they got the basics I guess, but still i will keep in mind
[3:42pm] fbar: hklv: Uhm, actually no. 
[3:42pm] bbogart: Miller, what is the "purpose" of PD (if your still here)
[3:42pm] hklv: (drum rolls)
[3:42pm] fbar: hklv: However I have a bigger plan, which has both "fun" and "work" parts, and I might rearrange the order a bit.
[3:43pm] hklv: fbar: maybe that we need a repository of funny patches.
[3:43pm] bbogart: fbar, high-level abstractions are pretty fun, so maybe that part is always fun and the low-level part is always at least related to something fun.
[3:44pm] _hc: fbar is the king of funny patches for sure
[3:45pm] oskude: i like the "project" approach, mean, you know before what youre going to build (i started using pd cause i heard its so easy to program a custom video player with it)
[3:45pm] hklv: bbogart: sometimes the low-level concepts are fun too. My favorire "hello world" patch is a [+] with 3 number boxes.
[3:45pm] fbar: bbogart: yes, colorful sliders, sound, pretty gem pictures is fun enough for this situation.
[3:46pm] hklv: is b&w always considered boring by newbies?
[3:47pm] korayt: hklv, no, but some finds a way then change the color of sliders
[3:47pm] bbogart: hklv, haha!
[3:49pm] bbogart: I'm writing a draft outline of a possible workshop series
[3:49pm] bbogart: I'm getting stuck at things for the students to do that are high-level.
[3:49pm] bbogart: I need problems that take creativity to solve...
[3:49pm] bbogart: not impliemtation problems but creative problems...
[3:50pm] korayt: bbogart, I might suggest to aske them to come up some sort of project plan
[3:50pm] bbogart: What if each tutorial chunk includes an example project that we have already developed, a concept, and we all solve it using the existing high-level abstractions together. .
[3:51pm] bbogart: korayt, Indeed, but I'm talking about the modules themselves, that parts that should work for any workshop with any creative audience.
[3:51pm] bbogart: (should not need to make a whole new curriculum for each new group)
[3:52pm] korayt: bbogart, I see your point
[3:52pm] bbogart: The intro just came off the top of my head, very simply, but I'm damn stuck on the second layer.
[3:52pm] bbogart: Here is what I have for "level 1"
[3:52pm] bbogart: * Image
[3:52pm] bbogart:   - Loading a still image (high-level, window vs file hidden)
[3:53pm] bbogart:   - Using a numberbox to control the size of the image.()
[3:53pm] bbogart:   - Loading a video clip (probably easiest with PDP?)
[3:53pm] bbogart:   - Using number box to scrub video
[3:53pm] bbogart:   - Using metro to control clip
[3:53pm] bbogart: * Sound
[3:53pm] bbogart:   - Load a sound file (high-level, no tables, no soundfiler)
[3:53pm] bbogart:   - Play sound file back with phasor~?
[3:53pm] bbogart:   - Srub sound file with numberbox
[3:53pm] bbogart:   - Create sound (high-level FM abstraction?)
[3:53pm] bbogart:   - Change sound quality with numberbox
[3:53pm] bbogart: * Network
[3:53pm] bbogart:   - Read MIDI values (simple MIDI abstraction)
[3:53pm] bbogart:   - Add midi control to control frame of video & tone of FM synth
[3:53pm] bbogart: * Physical Media
[3:53pm] bbogart:   - HW interface (serial, processing etc hidden)
[3:53pm] bbogart:   - LDR controls frame and triggers sound-file.
[3:54pm] bbogart: so far for level 2 I have:
[3:54pm] bbogart: * Image
[3:54pm] bbogart:   - High level PDP patch that has three abstractions:
[3:54pm] bbogart:     * load a image file
[3:54pm] bbogart:     * blue effect
[3:54pm] bbogart:     * output to window
[3:54pm] bbogart:   -
[3:54pm] bbogart: blue=blur
[3:57pm] bbogart: I'm thinking mini projects for each section...
[3:57pm] bbogart: is it worth it?
[3:57pm] j^vvd__ joined the chat room.
[3:57pm] bbogart: maybe one for each whole level, involving all modules (image/sound/network/physical media
[3:57pm] hklv: bbogart: gee, that's a big agenda.
[3:58pm] bbogart: hklv, with high-level chunks it looks like 2-3 days to me.
[3:58pm] hklv: bbogart: 2-3 full days?
[3:58pm] bbogart: 5 hours each
[3:58pm] fbar: I also don't think it's too much. To me the list looks fine.
[3:59pm] hklv: bbogart: or 5 times 3 hours.
[3:59pm] bbogart: fbar, what do you think of the idea of mini projects to drive the content for each level, serving both as example, inspiration and just unifiying principal.
[3:59pm] bbogart: hklv, yeah
[4:00pm] bbogart: I put my 14th PD workshop on my CV this morning
[4:01pm] fbar: bbogart: Organizing a x-mas party with DJ and VJ? 
[4:01pm] _hc: bbogart: you are the workshop king! 
[4:01pm] korayt: bbogart, 14, woow!!
[4:02pm] bbogart: fbar, haha!
[4:02pm] fbar: _hc: msp is the workshop king. 
[4:03pm] bbogart: msp, whats he up to? 1000? 
[4:03pm] korayt: msp, 10000000?
[4:03pm] bbogart: haha
[4:04pm] bbogart: Ok, in my metaphorical networks workshop we have such a driving example project, it is an LCR controlling a video clip of an eye opening.
[4:04pm] syntax_tn left the chat room. (Remote closed the connection)
[4:05pm] bbogart: Of course its based on the methaphorical method of creating, attaching two ideas (opening eve) and (sun-rise) together.
[4:05pm] bbogart: metaphor fits well because idea 1 = input, and idea 2 = output and we make the connection concrete.
[4:06pm] bbogart: but maybe metaphors are not for everyone. Heck I don't even make projects using that principal!!!
[4:06pm] bbogart: but as an example maybe its ok??
[4:06pm] ilteris joined the chat room.
[4:06pm] bbogart: or each module has a different approach to media art creation.
[4:07pm] bbogart: I have an idea, how about homework. Next time we meet eveyone must post a project idea that will serve as the unification of a particular level of a workshop (simple intro to damn complex)
[4:07pm] fbar: bbogart: boah, homework!?
[4:08pm] bbogart: ideally combining image/sound, networks and physical media
[4:08pm] bbogart: fbar, too busy? 
[4:08pm] syntax_tn joined the chat room.
[4:08pm] bbogart: we'll probably not be meeting again until 2006, so there is a few weeks to work on it....
[4:09pm] _hc: fbar: I wonder how many Pd workshops he's done... I think he lectures and teach classes more, to be specific
[4:09pm] fbar: _hc: you mean Miller?
[4:09pm] _hc: y
[4:10pm] _hc: bbogart: I think homework is a good idea, then those exercises can serve the double function of tutorials for people teaching themselves
[4:10pm] bbogart: _hc, are Miller's course notes online anywhere?
[4:10pm] _hc: the Max/MSP tutorials have exercises, for example
[4:10pm] fbar: what was the homework question again? 
[4:11pm] fbar: Okay, I can already think of some projects ...
[4:11pm] bbogart: _hc, ah I mean homework for US!!!!
[4:11pm] korayt: homework.
[4:11pm] _hc: ah, I see
[4:11pm] korayt: I need to think about it as well
[4:12pm] bbogart: I think its worthwhile exercise for us too, and if we impliment our ideas then we have some nice examples too.
[4:12pm] _hc: bbogart: I think having something concrete for the next meeting would be good, now that we've had too good discussions about ideas
[4:12pm] bbogart: for sure.
[4:12pm] bbogart: anyone need clarification on the assignment?
[4:12pm] bbogart: _hc, then the meeting after next we can have a good draft integrating the project ideas.
[4:12pm] oskude: hmm, yup 
[4:13pm] fbar: bbogart: maybe you can put the assignment into the meeting notes again?
[4:13pm] oskude: or so
[4:13pm] bbogart: fbar, indeed, already noted.
[4:14pm] hklv: bbogart: I might teach a little bit of PD in January (I'll know later this week).
[4:14pm] _hc: about meeting notes, anyone have a transcript from the meeting two weeks ago?  my IRC app saved a corrupt one, hence the delay in posthing the transcript.  I could probably salvage but I think it'd take me quite a bit of work
[4:14pm] fbar: _hc: (will you let me copy your solution to the assignment? i'll buy you a beer next time we meet. don't tell ben...)
[4:14pm] _hc: fbar: (sure just change the names)
[4:14pm] stffn: i twould be prety nice if the wiki pages get updated, abou the meeting history, agenda, notes etc.
[4:15pm] _hc: what would be the Pd punishment for cheating? 
[4:15pm] fbar: [metro 1]
[4:15pm] _hc: stffn: so far, basically everything is on the wiki
[4:15pm] _hc: stffn: is something missing, besides that transcript?
[4:15pm] slvmchn joined the chat room.
[4:15pm] bbogart: _hc, stack overflow in all your patches. 
[4:15pm] korayt:                          
[4:16pm] bbogart: I just sent Miller and email asking wha the purpose of PD is from his perspective.
[4:17pm] bbogart: I guess we should schedule the next meeting
[4:17pm] korayt: new year schedule!!
[4:17pm] bbogart: January 9th?
[4:17pm] bbogart: or is that too late?
[4:17pm] korayt: is it monday?
[4:17pm] _hc: I could do earlier
[4:17pm] bbogart: or should we try another weekday?
[4:18pm] _hc: but we'll get better results with time, perhaps?
[4:18pm] _hc: other than monday?
[4:18pm] stffn: _hc: not really. But i would be nice if there will be a tiny text explaing the absence of the last meeting on the wiki, too.
[4:18pm] fbar: both monday and tuesday generally is fine with me. The other days are more difficult.
[4:18pm] bbogart: _hc, or more procrastinaion? yeah other than monday, but monday works fine for me,
[4:18pm] korayt: monday is better for mw
[4:19pm] stffn: _hc: with, this meetings transcript, and the notes.
[4:19pm] bbogart: January 2nd sounds too early.
[4:19pm] _hc: there is a chance I'll be in Key West, Florida from Jan 7-14, in which case, I would not be near a computer, but wdoing manually
[4:19pm] _hc: oops
[4:19pm] _hc: manual labor setting up scultpure
[4:19pm] korayt: too early
[4:19pm] _hc: stffn: they'll be posted like the rest
[4:19pm] fbar: Jan 2 probably is not good, lots of people may be on vacation still.
[4:19pm] bbogart: 16th is too late... So I guess its the 9th and we'll see what happens with HCS.
[4:20pm] _hc: I can try, but I can say for sure
[4:20pm] stffn: _hc: Great stuff.
[4:20pm] fbar: so lets try 9th first.
[4:20pm] bbogart: _hc, when will you know when your gone?
[4:20pm] korayt: ok
[4:21pm] bbogart: 9th it is, and we'll revaluate if Hans can't make it then
[4:21pm] hklv: there's a PD workshop at SAT in Montréal on the 9th... incompatible encoding
[4:21pm] _hc: bbogart: by the end of the week, if I miss it, I miss it,
[4:21pm] _hc: ok
[4:21pm] bbogart: hklv, funny, which one?
[4:21pm] korayt: 9th is monday right?
[4:21pm] bbogart: yup
[4:21pm] korayt: cool;-9
[4:22pm] hklv: bbogart: for the fabrique numérique; you're invited... incompatible encoding
[4:23pm] bbogart: hklv, hmmmm
[4:23pm] bbogart: I'll keep you all posted if I have to leave town on the 9th as well.
[4:24pm] korayt: ok everybody
[4:24pm] korayt: I am leaving
[4:24pm] korayt: I wish you all happy new year
[4:24pm] korayt: and happy holidays!!!
[4:24pm] bbogart: ok, we'll talk over email and I'll send the notes to the PD list with the assignment
[4:24pm] bbogart: you too korayt
[4:25pm] korayt: bbogart, cool!
[4:25pm] hklv left the chat room. ("Au revoir!")
[4:25pm] korayt left the chat room. ("Leaving")
[4:25pm] bbogart: hc_, ok I'm off, I'm adding my notes to the wiki now.
[4:26pm] fbar: bye ben!
[4:27pm] _hc: bye ben
[4:28pm] bbogart: bye all
[4:28pm] bbogart left the chat room. ("Leaving")
[4:28pm] fbar: okay, I'm leaving, too. I wish you a happy christmas and a new year later on pd-list. 
[4:28pm] fbar: bye
[4:28pm] fbar left the chat room. ("999) nanoseconds")
[4:28pm] _hc: bye all, time to save this transcript