[2:14pm] bbogart: Ok so today we're devoted to talking about philosophy, please post your comments on the new templates to the wiki
[2:14pm] korayt: alx1, i am trying to receive SMS messages from phone to PD
[2:16pm] alx1: [OT] korayt, schweet, do you have a page documenting your progress?  I'd love to try to help.
[2:16pm] _hc: alx1: the grant org sounds interesting, think they'll mind giving some money to a guy south of the border? 
[2:16pm] bbogart: One of the biggest philosophical questions for me is the bottom-up, top-down approach, or some combination. I've only taught bottom-up so far and pretty unhappy with the student retension of the content
[2:16pm] bbogart: _hc "grant org"?
[2:17pm] _hc: granting organization
[2:17pm] alx1: _hc, smaller contracts and travel...which is better than nothing.
[2:17pm] _hc: alx1: that works
[2:17pm] _hc: alx1 I want to go to canada anyway
[2:17pm] korayt: alx1, I will send you email later, though not so much progress
[2:17pm] bbogart: Did I miss something? Which grant org??
[2:18pm] alx1: korayt, thxs
[2:18pm] marl03s: everyone learns in his/her own way, sometimes top down is best, sometimes bottum up
[2:18pm] bbogart: _hc, you should come to both Toronto and Montreal for a couple days, you can stay at my place here...
[2:18pm] korayt: alx1, I would need help for that:-)
[2:18pm] _hc: quoting alx1: "I was at a meeting of our granting council (Canada Council) and I heard of a nice program called Community-University Research Alliances...it sounds like the program for PDDP"
[2:18pm] bbogart: marl03s, hmmm
[2:19pm] bbogart: _hc, ah interesting! yes lets keep an eye on that for sure...
[2:19pm] marl03s: bbogart: well...
[2:19pm] alx1: actually it could be the thing for a lot of pd research...more later, grants are boring and this is a philosophy meeting
[2:19pm] aym3ric: depends what are the expectation of the students anyway ...
[2:19pm] bbogart: marl03s, meaning there is no starting point since everyone learns differently? Or we alterate between high-level and low-level concepts?
[2:19pm] _hc: alx1: grants are boring unless you are receiving the money 
[2:20pm] bbogart: marl03s, everyone seems to understand my workshop, they answer questions, but then when it comes to doing something on thier own, even after the little exercises, they are lost.
[2:20pm] marl03s: bbogart: in a group of students there will be huge differences always, alternating is good imo
[2:20pm] _hc: we have laid out some good ideas, and the Max/MSP tutorials are also a good reference
[2:21pm] _hc: some ideas: learn thru example, don't use anything until its explained (whenever possible)
[2:21pm] bbogart: _hc, is that last one on the wiki already?
[2:21pm] _hc: bbogart: donno, but we've definitely talked abou tit
[2:22pm] aym3ric: pd is too huge to be taught in one week from scratch to newbies, you have to keep it top down with ultra simple concept, very simple synthesis and array manipulations
[2:22pm] bbogart: An idea I had was to provide high-level GOPS with little programmability, but lots of payoff to get the students interested in the big-picture problems we can solve in PD.
[2:22pm] aym3ric: i meant bottom up
[2:22pm] aym3ric: top down sucks
[2:23pm] korayt: I have a 1 week workshop structure for PD where there are only 2 days lecturing and 3 days individual work
[2:23pm] theSamo joined the chat room.
[2:23pm] korayt: and they have to come up with a project after 2 days lecture
[2:23pm] bbogart: aym3ric, problem is bottom-up tends not to be very satisfying (yay, I have a blinking light, great...)
[2:23pm] alx1: korayt, that leaves 2 days for beer!
[2:23pm] korayt: well I am there for tutoring
[2:24pm] _hc: bbogart: the high-level GOPs would work better for after then intro, like the 2nd day maybe
[2:24pm] bbogart: korayt, I think the project based approach is the best to get the students really invested in learning concretely.
[2:24pm] _hc: bbogart: I like the Max/MSP style for the intro intro
[2:24pm] aym3ric: imho there are NONE gop that can be used smartly without touching to deep filthy dataflow logic
[2:24pm] Anton___ joined the chat room.
[2:24pm] korayt: bbogart,that's the way they understand the logic and solving their problems
[2:24pm] Anton___: pddp still on?
[2:24pm] bbogart: aym3ric, I entirely disagree... they are probably just none of them.. yet.
[2:24pm] bbogart: Anton___, ya
[2:25pm] Anton___: cool just lurking
[2:25pm] Anton___: (on the phone)
[2:25pm] aym3ric: bbogart: you would be surprised by the number of art project using blinking light 
[2:25pm] korayt: alx1, there is always a time for a beer;-)
[2:25pm] Anton___: hi guys, long time no seen!
[2:25pm] • chun is also lurking
[2:25pm] bbogart: korayt, where does the ideas for the students project come in? befor ethe workshop or during?
[2:25pm] marl03s: you need some bottom up to be able to start tweaking top down in a meaningfull way
[2:25pm] _hc: aym3ric: it depends on why people are taking the workshop, if they have a goal in mind, then the workshop can be focused on depth, but I get the feeling that many people take workshops to get an overview to see what's possible
[2:25pm] korayt: bbogart, during the workshop
[2:26pm] mirf joined the chat room.
[2:26pm] marl03s: i think a combination is essential
[2:26pm] bbogart: korayt, and no one feels pressured? does anyone not come up with an idea?
[2:26pm] mirf: is there a specific channel for grid flow?
[2:26pm] korayt: bbogart, half of the first day I introduce PD, history to the logic
[2:26pm] alx1: has anyone tried scambled patches where the students have to piece them together?
[2:26pm] aym3ric: _hc: that's not the point of a workshop i think, you get overview with lectures, and with workshops you learn, no ?
[2:26pm] korayt: bbogart, then I do suggest something for him/her
[2:27pm] marl03s: seeing what is possible and getting an idea of 'what lies beneath' should both be part of a workshop
[2:27pm] bbogart: aym3ric, you are right simple can be great, but in PD I would say button up is "implimentation then concept" and top down is "concept then implimentation"
[2:27pm] korayt: bbogart, but they come up with something, cos they read about ws structure before
[2:27pm] _hc: Anton___: hey good to have you here
[2:27pm] bbogart: korayt, how long before the workshops?
[2:27pm] alx1: mirf, hello, the channel is for all dataflow programming but it seems to be mostly about pd and it's extras (we're in a documentation meeting at the moment)
[2:27pm] alx1: mirf, and matju is the author
[2:27pm] mirf: (ooh OK I'll I'll keep quiet) 
[2:27pm] alx1: mirf, for gridflow I mean
[2:28pm] korayt: bbogart, i guess 2 weeks before the ws they announce, and students sign up
[2:28pm] korayt: bbogart, but noone does anything before they come to the first day
[2:28pm] bbogart: how do you think your structure would be different if the students would required to have a proposal?
[2:29pm] korayt: bbogart, and after the 2nd day of lecture, I talk to each of the students one by one asking what they are planning
[2:30pm] korayt: that would be nice
[2:30pm] bbogart: what if we zoomed back and forth between high and low level? (like in design process) where you see the big picture, then worry about implimentation a bit, then the big picture again?
[2:30pm] korayt: but that might also put too much pressure
[2:30pm] aym3ric: to the risk of sounding not politically incorrect, what you can do is simply based on students capabilities, in the recent workshops we (goto10) did we used application form and selected the students based on what they want to do and what they can understand (or not) quickly.
[2:30pm] bbogart: korayt, depends on the time they have to make the proposal?
[2:30pm] aym3ric: politically correct i meant ... cough
[2:31pm] bbogart: aym3ric, somtimes this is really needed, I got someone in a workshop that barely was able to open files on her own computer... that was hard.
[2:31pm] aym3ric: ah
[2:31pm] aym3ric: yes 
[2:31pm] _hc: aym3ric: right, most people probably want to learn a specific skill and focus on it, while others might want to get an intro to a range of skills, one idea is making the workshop days modular, so we can easily create tailored workshops
[2:31pm] korayt: bbogart, when they have the 2 days intense lectures and see the PD examples, then they come up with projects easily
[2:31pm] matju: perilisk: hello
[2:32pm] bbogart: _hc, I don't think I've ever taught anyone looking for something specific, they have all really wanted a lay of the land and to see what is possible. you already have to know something before you can decide to focus on one area...?
[2:32pm] fbar joined the chat room.
[2:32pm] aym3ric: well now imagine that student can be anything from "where's my mouse" to "how can i port my vst synth into a pd c object"
[2:32pm] fbar: hi, sorry, late ...
[2:32pm] aym3ric: hey frank!
[2:33pm] marl03s: and anything between a college student, an artist a technician or a programmer
[2:33pm] korayt: aym3ric, right, there are different students with different PD levels
[2:33pm] korayt: mar103s, true
[2:33pm] bbogart: of course, and the workshops shoudl respond to those needs in terms of focus..
[2:34pm] _hc: bbogart: I've had people with a project in mind looking for the right software to do it, so that would be an example of a specific focus
[2:34pm] korayt: there you need to have 2-3 days individual working on individual projects and you tutor all
[2:34pm] aym3ric: as a consequence there are no way to teach pd in one single way, and as a consequence this meeting is cancelled 
[2:34pm] bbogart: _hc, ah I see, was it technical or conceptual need?
[2:34pm] perilisk left the chat room.
[2:34pm] bbogart: aym3ric, cute!
[2:34pm] _hc: fbar: hey frank, better late then never 
[2:35pm] aym3ric: oops perilisk thought it was really cancelled
[2:35pm] korayt:                          
[2:35pm] fbar: _hc: yes, sorry, Metroid Prime got my tongue. 
[2:35pm] _hc: korayt: that's an interesting approach, but I am not sure that I like the idea of two days of lecturing, I think it should be hands on as soon as possible
[2:35pm] bbogart: What if we have a primer that is totally about what is possible culturally/creatively. No implimentation. This primer is simply designed to inspire the students. Then they think up a project (over a few days or a week) before the first "Real" class.
[2:36pm] aym3ric: _hc: yup i agree, lectures should not be more than one or two hours
[2:36pm] korayt: _hc, there are hands on exercises during this 2 days intense lectures
[2:36pm] korayt: _hc it is not like I talk and they take notes
[2:36pm] _hc: bbogart: mostly technical, one guy wasn't a strong technical guy, but had a grand plan, so was looking for software that he felt he could learn to do the project himself
[2:37pm] bbogart: _hc, did he take a workshop on every software to choose?
[2:37pm] aym3ric: ideally the 1st day should be top down and free to the students to put their hands on "dsp on and play" patches
[2:37pm] korayt: aym3ric, with questions, exercises sometimes 2 days dont be enought
[2:37pm] bbogart: aym3ric, I do a 5 hour lecture, but that is broken up with playing in between a bit.
[2:37pm] aym3ric: a huge collection of nice patches with gop
[2:38pm] bbogart: aym3ric, I'm thinking the primer would be even before that, the playing would come the next class. the primer is nothing about implimentation, mostely just examples of work, discussion of creative process, student specific interests etc.. It would only be a couple hours.
[2:38pm] _hc: bbogart: the primer could be the Pd examples, now that they are included.  Since Pd is free, people could download and try it out for themselves.  One of the things on my TODO list is a set of example patches I call PlayNow, which would just be some nifty thing with a really clear GUI that anyone could just open up and play with
[2:39pm] bbogart: _hc, of course we should encourage people to play on thier own, even before the primer, but it should not be assumed.
[2:39pm] korayt: _hc, when students dont understand the logic, they get bored from the examples
[2:39pm] aym3ric: bbogart: yeah ok, a walk-around everyone and global blabla is necessary, when i said 1st i meant the 1st stage of the hands on part of a workshop
[2:40pm] _hc: the primer part of the lecture could be a demo of projects that are really cool and not easy to use
[2:40pm] aym3ric: _hc: the current pd patches examples are waaaaaaaay too abstract for newbies and are everything but fun to play with  (for non geeks)
[2:40pm] marl03s: just inbetween: i think the most important part of a workshop is knowing your audience very well, and shaping the workshop to them
[2:40pm] bbogart: aym3ric, perfect. 
[2:41pm] bbogart: marl03s, amen.
[2:41pm] fbar: marl03s: That's so true. I always am a bit unsure before a workshop has begun on who to expect.
[2:41pm] _hc: korayt: not if you make them cool enough 
[2:41pm] korayt: mar1003s, that should be included in the law
[2:41pm] bbogart: in terms of abstractions I think we need to really design these things super simply, more simple than most existing ones...
[2:42pm] bbogart: "the law" 
[2:42pm] fbar: knowing the audience can be done through ben's approach: do talking about art etc. first.
[2:42pm] _hc: aym3ric: yes, that's were the idea of a PlayNow set of examples comes in
[2:42pm] marl03s: lol
[2:42pm] korayt: when they get the logic, they play around with the examples more freely
[2:42pm] chun: we should do pd personal tutoring...
[2:42pm] chun: 121
[2:42pm] mirf: yes PLEASe 
[2:42pm] aym3ric: bbogart: yup pd abstratcions for introducing pd should be a good compromise between duplo, lego and playskool stuff
[2:42pm] bbogart: I'm thinking a 10 year old should be able to use the abstractions that we're first exposing them too (even if they can't install PD)
[2:43pm] bbogart: aym3ric, wow!
[2:43pm] fbar: unfortunately many workshops in the pase started with getting the damn thing running on every participiciant's laptop
[2:43pm] fbar: s/pase/past
[2:43pm] _hc: bbogart: or a 5 year old.  I had my 5 year old cousin playing with some basic synth patches, he did it for an hour just moving sliders around
[2:43pm] marl03s: fbar: yes, that is a baaaaad aproach  we will avoid it in future!
[2:43pm] bbogart: I'm not sure how they would work but I like the idea of the high-level lego blocks would transfer easier to the low-level ones, just doing less things...
[2:44pm] korayt: fbar, thats true!!, i am lucky, institutions have their own computers
[2:44pm] fbar: marl03s: hans will save us all
[2:44pm] _hc: fbar: pd-extended!!
[2:44pm] aym3ric: fbar: yeah and i'm personnaly fed up with this install process, it bores everyone and at the end of the day the interest is going down ...
[2:44pm] fbar: PurePd is the way to go. 
[2:44pm] _hc: fbar: thanks to the sponsors...
[2:44pm] marl03s: thank god for institutions and live cds!!!!!
[2:44pm] marl03s: fbar: pure dyne?
[2:45pm] _hc: fbar: now that the sponsorship is up, anyone wanna help with Pd-extended? 
[2:45pm] fbar: marl03s: "pure" as in "no expernals. 
[2:45pm] marl03s: fbar: oh oops never mind
[2:45pm] matju: fbar: ... except for the externals that are considered internal enough.
[2:45pm] aym3ric: fbar: pure pure data ? mm.. 
[2:45pm] _hc: fbar: but PurePd is lacking the documentation, examples, etc.
[2:45pm] fbar: matju: yes, except for these.
[2:45pm] matju: fbar: wanna recode [fiddle~] as an abstraction ?
[2:46pm] _hc: matju: I want to see Gem as an abstraction!
[2:46pm] bbogart: I've come up with a idea of different modular areas for workshops: Image, sound, network (OSC, midi, internet etc..) and physical media (multiIO, AID, etc..)
[2:46pm] fbar: I'm just joking with "pure_pd".
[2:46pm] aym3ric: _hc: ah yeah i remember, PurePD is your collection of plain pd alternative for externals ?
[2:46pm] _hc: aym3ric: yup
[2:46pm] matju: _hc: when do we get [dlopen] and [dlsym] objects?
[2:46pm] korayt: bbogart, nice modules to focus
[2:47pm] _hc: aym3ric: its kind of a philsophical exericse
[2:47pm] marl03s: bbogart: could be a great basis!
[2:47pm] _hc: matju: with tgrill's loader patch
[2:47pm] bbogart: anyone taught any workshops using super-high level modules? maybe to kids or teens?
[2:47pm] aym3ric: _hc: i would say political ... 
[2:47pm] fbar: For my physical modelling workshop to be held next week I reimplemented large parts of pmpd as "pure-pd" abstractions.
[2:47pm] matju: _hc: i don't understand
[2:48pm] fbar: I want to show the inner workings of pmpd/msd, which is great to have as abstractions.
[2:48pm] _hc: ok, I think we are getting diverted... back to workshops
[2:48pm] marl03s: fbar: who are you teaching to next week? just curious 
[2:48pm] matju:        http://artengine.ca/matju/impd/gallery/desirefr.png    
[2:48pm] bbogart: fbar, good point, the GOPS should be EXAMPLES as much as abstractions.
[2:49pm] _hc: aym3ric: have you tried the Pd-extended installers?  I would like to have puredyne part of this as well
[2:49pm] korayt: btw, this thursday to Saturday I will give a PD+Aurduino ws with David, inventor of Aurduino open source microcontroller
[2:49pm] korayt: in Malmö
[2:49pm] _hc: then everyone will be on the same page in terms of what they have installed and wehre
[2:49pm] aym3ric: (matju: "mettre" is fr slang for fuck)
[2:49pm] fbar: marl03s: at www.khm.de in Cologne.
[2:50pm] _hc: korayt: ah cool!  I am working with David on a workshop in Madrid in May
[2:50pm] aym3ric: _hc: not yet, it's on my todo list
[2:50pm] bbogart: korayt, cool, actually are there Aurduino workshop materials online somewhere?
[2:50pm] matju: aym3ric: i know. it goes with pédé, dontcha think ?
[2:50pm] aym3ric: matju: 
[2:50pm] korayt: :hc, he told me about that too, cool:-)
[2:50pm] korayt: bbogart, i will find the link
[2:50pm] holzi left the chat room. (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[2:51pm] matju: aym3ric: also, bang is en slang for fuck
[2:51pm] bbogart: I borrow the book "Physical Computing" for inspiration for us, it looks all bottom-p though.
[2:51pm] korayt: http://arduino.berlios.de/
[2:51pm] bbogart: Any ideas about how to do the whole switching between high and low level teaching elengantly? without freaking people out?
[2:51pm] bbogart: korayt, thanks
[2:52pm] _hc: bbogart: I took classes with the guys who wrote Physical Computing, but I haven't read the book at all
[2:52pm] brick: finding a connection, bbogart,so you can traverse from one end to the other in the same example?
[2:52pm] matju: bbogart: you build a high level from a low level using abstractions
[2:52pm] bbogart: _hc,  do you have the book?
[2:52pm] matju: bbogart: therefore start by teaching them how to do abstractions
[2:52pm] _hc: no
[2:53pm] bbogart: brick, so that the transition from playing with high-level blocks to low-level ones is not to shocking
[2:53pm] brick: bbogart: i would try to include them both in the same diagram
[2:53pm] korayt: bbogart, can you explain about high level from a low level teaching?
[2:53pm] aym3ric: bbogart: you can make a big gop, that contains small gops that contains smaller gops, that contains tiny abstractions, that contains objects.
[2:53pm] fbar: matju: teaching abstractions is very important. I tend to do that very early, but using examples, we did before.
[2:53pm] _hc: bbogart: what about starting with high-level blocks, then starting to control the high level blocks with some low leve ones
[2:53pm] fbar: like use abstractions to introduce polyphony.
[2:54pm] bbogart: aym3ric, I was thinking about this too. To have multiple levels of abstraction we need multiple levels of abstractionS
[2:54pm] bbogart: example:
[2:54pm] bbogart: lets play a video
[2:54pm] _hc: fbar: yeah, I think abstraction are as basic as functions to procedural programming or objects to OOP
[2:54pm] bbogart: [play_video]
[2:55pm] bbogart: contains [play numbers] [load video] [video window] or something like that
[2:55pm] bbogart: each containing another set.
[2:55pm] bbogart: it will take some very restrained and considered patching though
[2:55pm] fbar: bbogart: maybe that even is too much for beginners?
[2:56pm] _hc: bbogart: that's useful, but not  good way to start off the process of introducing the low level
[2:56pm] bbogart: fbar, ah, only if you expose them.
[2:56pm] _hc: fbar: yes
[2:56pm] aym3ric: guys, your students are all dead now ... the most important is to understand the dataflow concept before dealing with abstractions ...
[2:56pm] _hc: I think you could start by controlling a highlevel object with a [metro] for example
[2:56pm] _hc: in the same pathc
[2:56pm] bbogart: _hc, that could work for sure...
[2:56pm] _hc: aym3ric: yes, dataflow first, then abstractions
[2:56pm] fbar: I think, pre-made abstractions are nice to replace [osc~]
[2:57pm] bbogart: so we have two parts per tutorial, the high-level part and the low-level part.
[2:57pm] bbogart: after a while they both meet in the middle... 
[2:57pm] _hc: hmm
[2:57pm] korayt: yes, dataflow first, logic!!
[2:57pm] bbogart: bottom up and top down
[2:57pm] _hc: that sounds good
[2:57pm] marl03s: bbogart: its so simple 
[2:58pm] korayt: bbogart, yes
[2:58pm] aym3ric: you need to show them TOYS, then you show them the PARTS used to make one, then you work with them on MAKING a small THINGGY that can be used to PLAY with OTHERS
[2:58pm] _hc: bbogart: bottom up to clearly illustrate what's going on, then top-down to make the exercises more interetsing
[2:58pm] _hc: and introduce the idea of using other people's objects
[2:58pm] _hc: or just other objects
[2:58pm] aym3ric: (pending patents you can't copy my sentence)
[2:58pm] • chun is getting lost:/
[2:58pm] bbogart: korayt, yes, I think this goes without saying, how should we define this? there are different levels.
[2:58pm] korayt: also some details
[2:59pm] bbogart: korayt, that is the "dataflow" part
[2:59pm] korayt: they should now what dac~ does, before they make sound with osc~
[2:59pm] fbar: I don't think in terms of "dataflow", I think in terms of [t b b f b].
[2:59pm] bbogart: I just start off talking about water at the top of the patch and go from there, inlets, filters, outlets...
[2:59pm] _hc: korayt: those two seem like they'd be on the same page
[2:59pm] korayt: _hc yes they are
[3:00pm] korayt: in my example
[3:00pm] bbogart: korayt, or should they know what [sound-output] does before [sine-wave] ?
[3:00pm] korayt: first I make dac object
[3:00pm] korayt: bbogart, yes
[3:00pm] korayt: and talk about the dac~ funcktion
[3:01pm] aym3ric: korayt: this is a very risky approach, sometimes it's better to say it's the "on" button than explaining it, cause you then directly touch to DSP concepts and you may not want to do that in Gem workshop for example
[3:01pm] korayt: then, I introduce osc~
[3:01pm] bbogart: [soundplayer] connecteds to a [dac~
[3:01pm] korayt: bbogart, yes
[3:02pm] korayt: aym3ric, I dont go deep to dac, but just that digital is now transforming into analog then..
[3:02pm] korayt: to speakers.
[3:02pm] bbogart: korayt, hmmmm
[3:02pm] aym3ric: korayt: 
[3:03pm] bbogart: korayt, does it really matter what dac~ does really? Its just another level of abstraction itself... does the student get more meaning from dac~ then [sound-output]?
[3:03pm] marl03s: if we talk about philosophy of workshops, it is hard to speak of how to shape one... since all workshops are different, with different goals + audience. maybe speak more general?
[3:04pm] korayt: then they know why they need dac~ to hear their patches
[3:04pm] aym3ric: aaaaaaaaanyway, if you have one week to teach pd, you need to either: propose a ready made workshop package with everything almost fixed on one ultra specific theme and filtered audience OR make the content with the people applying to it and adapt it to their need and expectations. i think this philosophical approach is only valid if you can teach pd in a regular course at uni for example.
[3:05pm] bbogart: aym3ric, I think we should break up #1 and pick and choose from that to deal with #2.
[3:05pm] _hc: yes
[3:05pm] bbogart: intro to PD for example is not sound or visual to specific, but if the group really likes video then the nest part is video.
[3:05pm] _hc: make a standard set of content is reasonably flexible modules
[3:06pm] bbogart: aym3ric, each module would then have a audience in mind
[3:06pm] korayt: aym3ric, there is now a possiblity that I will teach 10 weeks PD course, more focused on the larger scale projects, meeting ones in a week for 3 hours
[3:06pm] korayt: we need philosophical approach
[3:06pm] marl03s: korayt: nice!
[3:06pm] bbogart: aym3ric, the workshop teacher would pick and choose for her/his class. They could even look at the options together during the primer.
[3:06pm] _hc: aym3ric: ideally each module would have more info than necessary, which the workshop teacher and choose to highlight or skip depending on demand
[3:06pm] aym3ric: bbogart: except that it IS actually possible to teach pdp for example without dealing with almost no pd introduction, as well for Gem
[3:06pm] korayt: mar103s, i am trying to convince them
[3:07pm] aym3ric: korayt: nice 
[3:07pm] bbogart: aym3ric, just need one class, inlets, outlets, floats, symbols etc..
[3:07pm] maltesteiner joined the chat room.
[3:07pm] aym3ric: maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalte!
[3:07pm] marl03s: maltesteiner: heeeeey!
[3:07pm] bbogart: hi Malte
[3:08pm] maltesteiner: hi i am late, did I miss many?
[3:08pm] bbogart: So we have a big picture, Image/sound/physical/network
[3:08pm] korayt: anybody has an experience teaching PD in a longer term course?
[3:08pm] bbogart: how could these be seperated into submodules to make this idea of focus easier?
[3:08pm] bbogart: korayt, nope, I wish!
[3:09pm] maltesteiner: what is longer term course, more than 5 days I guess
[3:09pm] korayt: i mean like a regular course
[3:09pm] korayt: you meet once in a week
[3:09pm] _hc: bbogart: sound: filtering, synth, samples, etc
[3:09pm] korayt: and it lasts whole term
[3:09pm] _hc: bbogart: image: video, 3D, Gem , PDP
[3:10pm] bbogart: _hc, ok, that sounds good to me for sound
[3:10pm] bbogart: _hc, for video that is a good question... I don't know if having a different section for each library is the best approach...
[3:10pm] _hc: bbogart: or maybe also video filtering, control
[3:10pm] korayt: there should be also some modules that will work for all of them, like
[3:11pm] korayt: control objects...
[3:11pm] _hc: yes
[3:11pm] _hc: in an intro to Pd
[3:11pm] korayt: _hc, cool
[3:11pm] _hc: maybe an advanced pd too, plus a GUI/GOP workshop would be good
[3:12pm] bbogart: The idea is that for each of our 4 main sections that the user starts off really simple and then gets more in depth
[3:12pm] korayt: bbogart, yes
[3:12pm] bbogart: output a sine wave, load a still image, send a message to another machine, make a button trigger one of the previous three things
[3:13pm] fbar: you could also do other divisions. For example in sound, don't explain samples and additive synthesis, instead explain how to to string sounds and drums.
[3:13pm] _hc: fbar: like a rradical workshop
[3:14pm] korayt: fbar, that goes into more spesific project base tutoring
[3:14pm] bbogart: how do things like advanced control fit it? Like dynamic patching, how to organize a patch into abstractions/subpatches, communicating between many objects, etc.. does this just fill in as we proceed or does it become a seperate module?
[3:15pm] bbogart: fbar, intro-sound for musicians, and for mathematicians. 
[3:15pm] fbar: korayt: not only: Having concrete examples helps with understanding abstract concepts everywhere.
[3:15pm] maltesteiner: In my workshops I usually tell the history of soundsynthesis with examples of implementation (mp3 and picture) and a patch like : this is FM - here are some tracks from Chowning, this is the DX7
[3:15pm] _hc: bbogart: I think we'd need a 2nd day of basic Pd programming stuff like that
[3:15pm] bbogart: ah, history should be in the primer.
[3:16pm] maltesteiner: You know, I am still synthfreak 
[3:16pm] korayt: bbogart, yes, I start with that, and introducing PD community
[3:16pm] bbogart: _hc, ah I'm thinking about the whole structure not any particular time in it. I think its better for have an overarching plan that would work for a university course, even though we're starting with intro stuff, the ideas for the big picture should be there.
[3:17pm] _hc: maltesteiner: do you have many synths written in Pd?  I was thinking it would be awesome to have a suite of synths build in Pd that all used the same interface paradigms so that people could easily use them all in their patches.  SOmething like Reason for Pd (no GUI necessary tho)
[3:17pm] korayt: and also some useful links, where they can find more info, like pdb base
[3:17pm] maltesteiner: yep, not into gory detail to early, it would scare the people away
[3:18pm] aym3ric: _hc: that's the purpose of RRad no ?
[3:18pm] maltesteiner: first introduce the course and the goal, where do we go what do we want and what is possible
[3:18pm] _hc: aym3ric: I mean just the synths in an object, they could then be used in rradical too
[3:19pm] alx1: ...I'm picking the kids up, will catch up on the log later
[3:19pm] alx1 is now known as alx_away.
[3:19pm] korayt: alx1, see you
[3:19pm] bbogart: maltesteiner, goal.... what is the goal?
[3:19pm] maltesteiner: @hc: yes, I have some examples I did in my artistinresidency at lowtech.org in Sheffield 2002 but they need to be brushed up
[3:19pm] _hc: bbogart: I think that a university course would have a different plan than the workshops.  the workshops will be more results oriented
[3:19pm] bbogart: maltesteiner, as in something you'll understand by the end of this section?
[3:20pm] bbogart: _hc, maybe... U being more conceptual?
[3:20pm] dmorelli joined the chat room.
[3:20pm] _hc: bbogart: right, and more in depths on the concepts behind everything
[3:20pm] maltesteiner: @bb to give the students the big picture whats all about and what can be done. many dropped in and bearly know about pd at all and have a vague picture
[3:21pm] _hc: bbogart: I have been thinking about a university course on patcher programming style for a while now..
[3:21pm] korayt: at the end of the workshop, I ask students to present their works and pd patches where they talk how they contructed their ideas, this is also useful for the students to understand different approaches.
[3:21pm] _hc: korayt: yeah, that's good, plus they have a little deadline pressure, which helps get things done
[3:22pm] maltesteiner: usually students are very heterogene knowledge from frickelfreak to artist-I-dont-know-so-much-about-computer-so-be-gentle
[3:22pm] _hc: maltesteiner: yeah, I think that happens in any computer course, or at least any thta I have taken
[3:22pm] korayt: _hc, yes they at least do a prototype, and after they develope further
[3:23pm] maltesteiner: @hc and particular to our situation: artists involved 
[3:24pm] bbogart: In my workshop I do a little part about approaching creative process in dataflow (metaphorical networks) how do you all see this fitting in. We're still really talking about implieming ideas here, but almost nothing about the idea process and the relatioship between the idea and the tool.
[3:25pm] maltesteiner: I use the classical paradigm of modular synthesizer, even when I usually include gem too.
[3:26pm] marl03s: bbogart: that is very important to pay attention to! 1 step back even: it is important for students to find out during the workshop if pure data is the right tool for what they want
[3:26pm] _hc: so we've been talking about approaches a lot here, can anyone think of how to represent their approach in an example?  that always makes things much clearer, more me at least
[3:26pm] bbogart: marl03s, true, and even all the examples of what is it used for may not tell them what they really need to know.
[3:27pm] bbogart: marl03s, PD could be amazing for kinds of language processing, no in sound or image just text.
[3:27pm] fbar: but it can take years to find out, what the need to know or what tool is the right one?
[3:27pm] marl03s: bbogart: exactly! so the 'umbrella' of a workshop should be also: what KIND of tool is pd
[3:27pm] Anton___ left the chat room. ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com")
[3:28pm] Anton___ joined the chat room.
[3:28pm] marl03s: fbar: of course, but some students come with VJ ambitions and little time on their hands, they could spend time differently 
[3:28pm] bbogart: marl03s, is this in the primer or a thread that runs underneath all tuts?
[3:28pm] fbar: maybe they learn, that VJing in clubs isn't all there is?
[3:29pm] marl03s: fbar: yeah that is what we hope 
[3:29pm] bbogart: marl03s, personally I'm as much interested in the conceptual development of live-media as the implimentation of it.
[3:29pm] fbar: Personally I'd like to teach the students some thing they will be able to use even when they choose a different tool later.
[3:30pm] fbar: Like "abstraction": It is important everywhere. Or let them experienve, that they can make the computer do forbidden things.
[3:30pm] _hc: fbar: yeah, overarching concepts instead of purely technical details, though that seems difficult to compress into a week or a few dats...
[3:30pm] marl03s: fbar: yeah, and while you tach them usefull things, you explain what kind of tool it is, unconciously or consciously
[3:30pm] bbogart: fbar, I don't think we, as free software users, can ignore the policial issues as well. One interested and strong reaon to use PD.
[3:31pm] maltesteiner: @fbar but also the dsp they learn during a course is something they can use elsewhere, how to create sounds
[3:31pm] fbar: _hc: It can be small stuff as well, like: creating sound is not secret art owned by Native Instruments.
[3:31pm] _hc: fbar: hehe, good one
[3:32pm] korayt: I am a bit forcing them to use open source envirinments, but I am not forcing them too much, so it is not that much pressure;-)
[3:32pm] korayt: *environments
[3:33pm] aym3ric: ah well... once again ... it depends on your audience
[3:34pm] fbar: aym3ric: definitely. People, who want to use Reason, but not pay for it, are lost. People, who only know Reason, but want to look behind the curtain, have to be lured to Pd.
[3:35pm] aym3ric: yup
[3:35pm] korayt: bbogart, shall we get back to the modules that you described
[3:36pm] bbogart: korayt, wah, phased out there writing notes (ohh so many ideas today)
[3:36pm] bbogart: ok, so where were we? I don't remember any ideas of the place of creative process in these workshops.
[3:36pm] korayt: bbogart, 
[3:38pm] fbar: bbogart: maybe the opinions on the creative process are to different among us? I must admit, at least I didn't give that much thought so far.
[3:38pm] bbogart: I'm imaging a kind of map of structure and content, lots of ideas filled in here.
[3:39pm] bbogart: fbar, this is true but each person has a take on how to approach an implimentation problem. This does not mean we should not teach a approach, there are always multiple approaches to anything.
[3:39pm] maltesteiner: @fbar but at least we can talk about, would be interesting, dont need to get into a flamewar 
[3:39pm] bbogart: maybe that is an important element of the philosophy, "There are always multiple ways of approaching a problem/process"
[3:40pm] bbogart: FYI I have 20min left
[3:40pm] fbar: bbogart: what you said earlier about "metaphorical networks" reminded me of something, Miller said in an inverview in Graz. I'll post it now:
[3:41pm] fbar: The second thing is graphical interfaces, and the feeling of intimacy that they give with the computer's workings -- a feeling that is, as you suggest, purely illusory. I think the answer is that a graphical interface can be honest or dishonest. An example of a dishonest interface is Microsoft's desktop, on which you don't actually see your files, but only those certain files that happen to be placed so that they're visible there (and aren' incompatible encoding
[3:41pm] fbar: In contrast, I hope that people who use Pd actually "see" what they are really doing, with nothing hidden and nothing aliased to look like something different. And perhaps that allows a more intimate control of the actual making of computer music or art in Pd than is offered by more metaphor-laden systems incompatible encoding
[3:41pm] fbar: (miller end)
[3:42pm] bbogart: fbar, this is an interesting idea, BUT I disagree with miller here, it is all about different layers of abstraction. An abstraction does have some ideology embeded in it, its a choice of editing.
[3:43pm] bbogart: Computers would not be useable if we say what was really happening and had non-abstracted control over it (thats a lot of flying bits to move copy one file)
[3:44pm] bbogart: For example: binary -> assembler -> C -> C library -> PD
[3:44pm] marl03s: i like it that in pd you can see the process drawn out in front of you like a map (not exaclty all the processes but compared to macromedia shit..) i like what miller says
[3:44pm] bbogart: each treaks the "truth" and takes away freedom for usability and symbolism.
[3:44pm] bbogart: treaks=tweaks
[3:44pm] fbar: bbogart: But basically Miller say: "abstraction != metaphor"
[3:45pm] _hc: I think the idea is more that you should stay honest to what's going on when you are making levels of abstractions
[3:45pm] marl03s: and i find it usefull for learning about dsp etc
[3:45pm] bbogart: fbar, hmm, I did not get that, please say more
[3:45pm] maltesteiner: only freedom is programmin in assembler, and speedy too. but takes a little bit time ... 
[3:45pm] bbogart: I would say that the method of abstraction should overlap as much as possible with the knowledge of your audience.
[3:46pm] fbar: bbogart: I think, he means, that a metaphor like the trashcan on a Desktop is really different from the idea, that is hidden behind the word "delete". Pd is words in space.
[3:46pm] bbogart: if your a classic musician and string sounds are meaningful to you, then abstracing synths into strings makes sense. It may not be the way a techno/industrial musician would like to relate to what is "really" happening.
[3:47pm] aym3ric: (i think all your students are gone now)
[3:47pm] fbar: "deleting" is an abstract concept, that tries to describe as exactly as possible to concept behind it. A trashcan metaphor OTOH hides the concept behind a different concept.
[3:48pm] bbogart: fbar, hmmm, still not getting it. you mean that metaphor is different than symbolizm?
[3:48pm] bbogart: aym3ric, only the academics left. 
[3:48pm] bbogart: yes!
[3:48pm] marl03s: non academic still thinks miller has a good point: i like it that in pd you can see the process drawn out in front of you like a map (not exaclty all the processes but compared to macromedia shit..) i like what miller says
[3:48pm] korayt: aym3ric, they switched to reason course:-)
[3:48pm] fbar: bbogart: yes, maybe. (Note that I'm not really finished with thinking about this, I just read the quote yesterday.)
[3:49pm] shift8 joined the chat room.
[3:49pm] fbar: marl03s: Or as matju said recently: A word says more than a thousand pictures.
[3:50pm] bbogart: fbar, got you now. although a metaphor has a lot more cultural content (lies) an abstraction still has (lies) it in, even when we are not aware of the fact. I do agree that abstraction is more clean, but maybe metaphor is a better building block of culture?
[3:50pm] fbar: bbogart: uhm, what is symbolism?
[3:50pm] korayt: I think I liked the idea to show students that PD is pure in this sense, that nothing is hidden, and they are all there whatever you constructed
[3:50pm] marl03s: fbar: right on
[3:50pm] bbogart: fbar, symbol represents something "real"
[3:51pm] bbogart: korayt, but its not really pure either... but PD's ideology is a better choice than macromedias!
[3:51pm] • marl03s is starving, have to eat... argh... see you all later!!!!
[3:51pm] bbogart: hehe 10min left, what to do with it!
[3:52pm] korayt: bbogart, yes, at least students should be aware of this
[3:52pm] bbogart: marl03s, I'll post my notes, I hope we get some more comments on the wiki
[3:52pm] maltesteiner: what do you guys mean with macromedia, the film/timeline/frame paradigma?
[3:52pm] korayt: bbogart, lets continue next week?
[3:52pm] marl03s: bbogart: will check it out!!! thnx + bye 
[3:52pm] fbar: seeya, marl03s!
[3:52pm] marl03s left the chat room. ("leaving")
[3:52pm] bbogart: _hc, any other ideas?
[3:53pm] korayt: mar103s, see you
[3:54pm] bbogart: I do think its important we talk about this because there are not many that deal with the issues of ideology in technology, it likes to prepend it is neutral.
[3:54pm] bbogart: korayt, I guess we should continue next week. same time I guess.
[3:55pm] bbogart: I have lots of notes and will send to the PD list.
[3:55pm] _hc: bbogart:  I think I covered mine, but right now I feel like I have stuff to think about rather than answers
[3:55pm] bbogart: Don't forget to comment on the new templates on the wiki!
[3:55pm] korayt: bbogart, same time same place:-)
[3:55pm] fbar: bbogart: yes, it's an itneresting topic.
[3:55pm] _hc: good discussion
[3:55pm] bbogart: _hc I agree,
[3:55pm] korayt: _hc yeah!
[3:55pm] _hc: it was good to get a range of opinions, that's why we have these meeting I suppose
[3:56pm] _hc: and a range of experience too
[3:56pm] bbogart: I think PD like few other things is a way of talking about these issues embeded in any technology.
[3:56pm] bbogart: _hc for sure, I love the idea of high level and low-level on the same patch. really great idea.
[3:56pm] bbogart: I better get ready for the cold ride home.
[3:57pm] maltesteiner: bicycle?
[3:57pm] _hc: ah, I just wanted to say one last thing, in case it wasn't clear, and that is that my main focus in this project is the idea of applying the ideas of open source development to the workshop materials so all of us can do less work and come up with better materials.  I don't think its anyone's intention to force people to teach Pd in any certainway, we just need to be on the same page in order to cooperate
[3:57pm] bbogart: indeed, -13C windchill
[3:57pm] _hc: bbogart: damn, you are hard core!
[3:58pm] maltesteiner: geez
[3:58pm] korayt: bbogart, take care!
[3:58pm] fbar: bbogart: brrrrr.
[3:58pm] korayt: bbogart, I know what cold is!!
[3:58pm] bbogart: thanks all! talk next week, please post ideas on the wiki.
[3:58pm] _hc: I usually quit biking at around -10C
[3:58pm] bbogart: bye all!
[3:58pm] fbar: bye!!
[3:58pm] korayt: bbogart, bye!
[3:58pm] bbogart left the chat room. ("Leaving")
[3:58pm] _hc: I've got to go too, bye all!
[3:58pm] maltesteiner: bye bogart, take care
[3:59pm] korayt: I am leaving too
[3:59pm] maltesteiner: wait hc
[3:59pm] _hc: yes?
[3:59pm] maltesteiner: one question
[3:59pm] fbar: ciao, _hc, ciao, maltesteiner
[3:59pm] korayt: see you all next week!!
[3:59pm] _hc: see ya
[3:59pm] maltesteiner: ciao frank
[3:59pm] korayt: bye everybody!
[3:59pm] fbar: bye korayt
[3:59pm] maltesteiner: i installed your installer for linux...
[3:59pm] _hc: ok, its currently the roughest of the three ...
[3:59pm] korayt: bye, frank
[3:59pm] maltesteiner: but it didnt give me the option to connect to jack
[3:59pm] korayt left the chat room. ("Leaving")
[4:00pm] fbar: _hc: should we meet here regarding the installers the next days?
[4:00pm] _hc: oh yeah, it probably wasn't compiled with Jack support, hopefully the next release will have that
[4:00pm] _hc: fbar: ok, what about?
[4:00pm] maltesteiner: do i miss something ( of course, jack :))?
[4:00pm] maltesteiner: I C
[4:00pm] fbar: Hm, maybe tomorrow, same time?
[4:04pm] maltesteiner: @hc: so its not me this time 
[4:12pm] fbar left the chat room. ("bye")
[4:12pm] fbar joined the chat room.
[4:12pm] matju: who was marl03s ?
[4:12pm] fbar: Uh, I think, my irc client crashed...
[4:13pm] chun: matju: aym3ric's gf
[4:13pm] matju: chun: thanks
[4:13pm] chun: fbar: howdy
[4:13pm] fbar: hi chun
[4:19pm] p8r___: fbar: alaaaaf!
[4:19pm] mamalala: helau!
[4:19pm] p8r___: here we have carnival in carynthia, the cheering goes like "lei lei"!
[4:20pm] maltesteiner: omg, is carnival in cologne?
[4:20pm] mamalala: p8r___: carynthia? where is that?
[4:20pm] p8r___: mamalala: south of austria (woertersee)
[4:20pm] fbar: p8r___: hi peter!!
[4:20pm] mamalala: p8r___: ah, sounds somewhat exotic 
[4:21pm] p8r___: fbar: huhu, just read your mail! am just right now preparing to give a talk tomorrow on iem about the old cdp suite of programs
[4:21pm] fbar: Of course there's carnival in cologne, it started 11/11!
[4:22pm] fbar: p8r___: Ah, where *you* have the source, right?
[4:23pm] maltesteiner: but the real disaster happens around Rosenmontag, isn't it?
[4:23pm] fbar: maltesteiner: yes, that's the main mess. 
[4:24pm] p8r___: fbar: wini has them, but we can't use them. so the talk is more about the compositional aspect of it
[4:24pm] p8r___: fbar: ...which is very exciting.
[4:25pm] fbar: It sounds very interesting.
[4:25pm] p8r___: fbar: hi when you did csound in the old days did you encounter any possible ways of letting cdp talk to csound?
[4:25pm] fbar: p8r___: I've never used cdp...
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[4:26pm] p8r___: fbar: uh, but csound i thought, nevermind
[4:27pm] fbar: p8r___: I just looked up "CDP" in the index of the Csound Book. But it's not in there.
[4:27pm] p8r___: fbar: ok, thanks! then google will have sth for me perhaps...
[4:28pm] maltesteiner: is cdp the composers desktop project by wishart?
[4:28pm] fbar: maltesteiner: yes.
[4:29pm] p8r___: maltesteiner: a very nice contrast to pd/sc since it is offline and not very visual too. (and sadly not open source)
[4:30pm] wip: mamalala, what about this one: http://www.workinprogress.ca/pd/tape.jpg ?
[4:30pm] maltesteiner: and not free either, at least last time I checked out but its years ago
[4:30pm] p8r___: but it is more like laying out a composition than building an instrument or describing a process (which pd sometimes is)
[4:30pm] maltesteiner: and because its based on csound i thoght to myself why not use csound direct 
[4:30pm] mamalala: wip: that should do it, but test the output with a voltmeter first.....
[4:31pm] mamalala: wip: it may be that the divider at the output isnt needed .....
[4:31pm] wip: mamalala, ok!
[4:31pm] p8r___: maltesteiner: thats perhaps not 100& right, it surely leads in a completely different direction than csound, since it has f.e. not much synthesis in there
[4:32pm] p8r___: maltesteiner: more like soundfile processing (and a lot of this in the freq domain)
[4:32pm] p8r___: mamalala: cool link you sent last night about joergis-roehrenbude!
[4:32pm] mamalala: p8r___: thanks 
[4:32pm] maltesteiner: @p8 yes, you are right. another tool another paradigm, a lot of phase vocoder when I remember right
[4:32pm] maltesteiner: more the tape musician approach in general
[4:33pm] p8r___: maltesteiner: yes, that too. These people see themselves as followers of schaeffer and the like
[4:33pm] maltesteiner: ...but thats the way I work with csound anyway
[4:34pm] maltesteiner: wasnt cdp created at ircam?
[4:34pm] p8r___: uh, cool, i never went beyond the synthesis aspects of csound.
[4:34pm] p8r___: no, influenced by early ircam mainframe work
[4:34pm] p8r___: and wishart wrote some fft programs while he wrote vox-5 at ircam, yes, but it is (today) fairly independant
[4:37pm] fbar: So, I gotta go again.
[4:37pm] fbar: ciao all
[4:37pm] p8r___: fbar: jut nacht!
[4:37pm] maltesteiner: cya Frank
[4:37pm] mamalala: bye fbar
[4:37pm] fbar: schlaft gut, alle miteinander!
[4:37pm] mamalala: danke ...
[4:37pm] p8r___: fbar: muss
[4:37pm] fbar left the chat room. ("999) nanoseconds")
[4:37pm] maltesteiner:                          
[4:38pm] mamalala: p8r___: seen my latest electronic gadget, the vplayer?
[4:39pm] p8r___: mamalala: no, i even don't manage to compile mplayer   No, seriously, what is it?