[12:52pm] alx1 joined the chat room. [12:52pm] alx1: hi all [12:53pm] nash: hi alx1 [12:54pm] alx1: _hc, howdy, I installed pd-extended for the mac on a G5 and a G4 and I get strange codec noise with GEM, have you encountered this before? [12:54pm] alx1: nash, allo [12:54pm] _hc: hey all [12:54pm] _hc: hey alx1 [12:55pm] _hc: alx1: I haven't heard of this before [12:55pm] _hc: alx1: noise in the video or in the audio? [12:55pm] alx1: _hc, or do you have a tracker for 'bugs'? [12:55pm] _hc: alx1: the Pd one [12:55pm] _hc: alx1: on the sourceforge page [12:55pm] alx1: _hc, thank you btw, the installer is painless [12:55pm] _hc: alx1: good good [12:55pm] _hc: alx1: unfortunately, making the build system was not painless [12:56pm] alx1: _hc, well I wonder what happened to ./configure, make, make install [12:56pm] _hc: alx1: its simple enough that configure isn't needed, just make and make install [12:56pm] alx1: how do I compile with scons? [12:56pm] nash: what's the way to do it the debian way ? fakeroot debian/rules build ? [12:56pm] _hc: alx1: no idea about scons, never used it [12:57pm] alx1: _hc, I'll do a screenshot about the video [12:57pm] _hc: nash: the debian packages are still set up the old way, but it would not be hard to build debian packages from the extended build system [12:57pm] alx1: _hc, we're running osx 10.3.9 [12:57pm] nash: yeah that's what i'm talking too _hc [12:58pm] _hc: nash: or any packge for that matter [12:58pm] nash: i dled cvs repository [12:58pm] nash: compiled it sucessfully from the packages/linux_make makefile [12:58pm] nash: but as i'm running debian i though i'd be better to do it from packages/debian folder [12:59pm] _hc: for a debian package, you need to compile everything like this:  make install prefix=/usr [12:59pm] _hc: since debian packages generally install into /usr rather than /usr/local [12:59pm] _hc: nash: the thing in packages/debian is currently just the stuff to build the pd core package, not the extended stuff [1:00pm] nash: oh ok [1:00pm] _hc: nash: I haven't updated any of the debian stuff [1:00pm] nash: ok then so i'm ok [1:00pm] _hc: nash: but it would be awesome if you did [1:00pm] nash: i'm just a n00b atm [1:00pm] nash:                         [1:00pm] _hc: nash: you can learn [1:00pm] nash: i'm trying to [1:01pm] nash: day job earning money [1:01pm] _hc: nash: good good [1:01pm] nash: night learning programming and debian [1:01pm] nash: not sleeping that much [1:01pm] nash: : [1:01pm] _hc: nash: but just to install it from source, you can do something easier [1:01pm] wip: hi hans [1:01pm] _hc: wip: hello [1:01pm] nash: hold on [1:03pm] _hc: nash: after "make install" in packages/linux_make, do "make tarbz2", that will make the installatoin Makefile and  a tarball [1:03pm] wip: mamalala, i have to order a new infra-red sensor (proximity) @ digikey. [1:03pm] mardy left the chat room. (Nick collision from services.) [1:04pm] wip: mamalala, do you have a suggestion for using a breadboard for "final" release. i don't want to put a big breadboard on the guitar! is there an alternative? [1:04pm] _hc: nash: then cd into build/usr/local and type "make install" and that will install Pd into /usr/local [1:04pm] mamalala: wip: what happened with the sensor? [1:04pm] dmorelli left the chat room. (" gottaGo") [1:04pm] _hc: nash: ignore the "make install prefix=/usr" part, that would be for building the debian packages [1:04pm] wip: mamalala, i'm using it with the theremin! [1:05pm] mamalala: wip: there are proto boards that contain a gib matrix of pads and holes ... you solder the parts in and connect them with soldered wires ... [1:05pm] wip: mamalala, for the guitar i will use a smaller one (3cm to 10cm) or something like thaty [1:05pm] mamalala: wip: ah, i thought you trashed it somehow [1:05pm] wip: mamalala, only once [1:05pm] wip: mamalala, perfect i will look for proto boards! [1:06pm] mamalala: they are rater cheap ... abut 2-5 euros here, depending on the type .... [1:06pm] wip: mamalala, everything will be small for the vhs slider with the resistor and op-amp. so i guess i can use a small one... [1:06pm] mamalala: there are also some where you have always 3 pads grouped together, makes it somewhat simpler to wire ..... [1:07pm] wip: mamalala, question: what does surfboard or uni-sip means? [1:07pm] mamalala: dunno .... [1:08pm] wip: mamalala, then numbers of pins? from 3 to 20... [1:08pm] mamalala: hu ? [1:08pm] syntax_tn joined the chat room. [1:08pm] mamalala: wip: im talking of something like this: http://www1.conrad.de/xl/5000_5999/5200/5290/5296/529618_BB_00_FB.EPS.jpg [1:09pm] wip: mamalala, ah i see! [1:09pm] mamalala: it has 100x160 mm size and is 1,99 euro .... [1:09pm] mamalala: always 3 holes/pads together in one strip ... [1:10pm] wip: mamalala, ok funny i was looking at digikey protoboard. and this is how they look: http://www.capitaladvanced.com/images/us10agrp.gif [1:10pm] alx1: here's a screenshot of the 'effect' : http://artengine.ca/~tiki/tiki-download_file.php?fileId=300 [1:10pm] mamalala: wip: ah, no .... [1:11pm] mamalala: these are used as a kind of adapter to put ic's or smaller modules into a breadboard ..... [1:12pm] wip: mamalala, i'm asking digikey live help to find me a solution! [1:12pm] mamalala: alx1: other would sell that as plugin for adobe premiere and charge a lot of bucks [1:12pm] _hc: alx1: is that the Gem codec noise you were talkign about? [1:13pm] _hc: alx1: sounds like a question for the Gem people, I don't know a lot about Gem.  I just included a binary compiled by Jamie [1:13pm] mamalala: wip: i think they are usually called "perfboard" in english .... [1:14pm] _hc: alx1: looks kind of nice tho, if you can turn it off [1:14pm] wip: mamalala, cool! [1:16pm] alx1: _hc, mamalala, yes, I want to emulate it as soon as we get it to play right [1:17pm] alx1: _hc, ok, i was pestering Jamie yesterday, I'll show him the screenshot when he shows up [1:22pm] mamalala: it looks as if the image itself is decoded propperly, but then something goes wrong when the image is moved in memory .... [1:26pm] wip: mamalala, what about this one: PC BOARD 4"X5" UNCLAD 0.1". just want to be sure it will fit with my op-amp? [1:26pm] wip: mamalala, http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Twin%20Industries/Web%20Photo/7100-45.jpg [1:26pm] mamalala: unclad = no copper, not what you need .... [1:27pm] wip: mamalala, i'm glad i have ask [1:27pm] nash: are pdp gem gridflow supposed to self compiled with pd-extended build system ? [1:27pm] mamalala: its more than big enough .... [1:27pm] mamalala: and 0.1" pitch is right [1:27pm] mamalala: wip: but as said, you need it with copper ... (clad) [1:28pm] wip: mamalala, then this one! http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Twin%20Industries/Web%20Photo/8000-45.jpg [1:28pm] _hc: nash: pdp gem and gridflow are not part of the build system yet [1:28pm] mamalala: wip: yea! [1:28pm] _hc: nash:  its just a matter of someone doing a bit of work [1:28pm] wip: mamalala, PC BOARD 4"X5" PTH 0.1" (Contains Lead) confirmed? [1:29pm] mamalala: yes ... [1:29pm] wip: mamalala, 1000 thank you [1:29pm] nash: thanx hans i think i figured out the main process [1:29pm] mamalala: wip: nothing to thank for [1:29pm] _hc: nash: Jamie has been working on gem, pdp, pidip, and gem2pdp, so that should be integrated soon [1:30pm] _hc: nash: as for gridflow, its kind of a blackbox to me, but I am sure it would not be to hard to add it if it compiles easily [1:30pm] nash: ok [1:33pm] nash: is there a roadmap of what's included and what's not atm ? [1:34pm] _hc: nash: not good one [1:35pm] _hc: basically, the list on my website [1:35pm] nash: ok [1:35pm] _hc: nash basically everything from CVS except Gem, PDP, and GridFlow are compiled from source [1:36pm] mamalala: hello _hc, btw ..... [1:36pm] mamalala:                         [1:36pm] _hc: mamalala: [1:36pm] _hc: mamalala: hello [1:36pm] _hc: nash: oops, also, flext is not working yet, but that should not be too hard [1:37pm] _hc: easy actually [1:38pm] Sneaky_Bastard joined the chat room. [1:38pm] nash: okey ty a lot hans u make my day [1:38pm] mamalala: _hc: how is it? started with the iobox already? [1:42pm] _hc: mamalala: actually, I haven't been able to work with the sensor stuff yet [1:42pm] _hc: mamalala: but I plan on working on it full time at the beginning of Jan. [1:42pm] mamalala: _hc: thought that already ... youre quite busy as i can see on the pd list .... [1:42pm] _hc: mamalala: I am going to be giving some related workshops in late Spring... [1:43pm] mamalala: _hc: cool, i think that by then i should have a first new firmware together, already using the new flash pic .... [1:43pm] _hc: mamalala: hehe, in a week or two, I will probably disappear for a bit.  I have a two week project working on something unrelated to Pd. [1:43pm] mamalala: _hc: hey, sounds interresting [1:43pm] mamalala: (the workshop stuff) [1:44pm] _hc: mamalala: actually, it will be in Spain, plus I am trying to go to some other places as well [1:44pm] _hc: mamalala: a kind of workshop tour... [1:45pm] mamalala: _hc: hehe, nice ..... im sitting here and have a lot of fun hacking together the video player firmware .... [1:45pm] mamalala: _hc: http://mamalala.de/vp.html [1:45pm] _hc: mamalala: yeah, that thing looks cool [1:47pm] mamalala: thanks .... thats the prototype, the final one will be smaller ... its meant for installations, its an idea from alx1 .... [1:47pm] magicwindow joined the chat room. [1:48pm] syntax_tn left the chat room. ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/") [1:48pm] _hc: wow, that's small [1:49pm] mamalala: 100x100 mm currently ... [1:49pm] mamalala: my goal is the size of a cigarette box, maybe a 25's pack .... [1:49pm] kliger joined the chat room. [1:50pm] _hc: mamalala: where are you based?  it'd be fun to meet up, I am aiming to be in Madrid, Barcelona, Vienna, Amsterdam, England, and maybe Sweden [1:50pm] _hc: mamalala: nice!  what powers it? [1:50pm] mamalala: _hc: im in germany, in essen ... that not far away from the dutch border ..... [1:51pm] mamalala: _hc: its powered by some dc power ... either a wallplug transformer for each, or a distributed system as for 12v halogen lightning .... [1:51pm] _hc: mamalala: dann konnte ich Deutsch wieder sprechen [1:51pm] mamalala: since each one is connected to its own monitor, theres an power supply around anyway ... [1:51pm] mamalala: _hc: hey! was fuer eine ueberraschung! [1:52pm] mamalala: _hc: youre welcome to come around and maybe even stay for some days, if you like .... [1:52pm] bbogart joined the chat room. [1:52pm] mamalala: maybe when youre traveling from vienna to amsterdam .... [1:53pm] bbogart: raffel [1:53pm] bbogart: woops [1:53pm] bbogart: hello! [1:53pm] mamalala: hi bbogart [1:53pm] _hc: mamalala: yeah, that would be cool, its not far from Köln, right?  I'd like to check out Frank & co too [1:53pm] bbogart: I put a couple new things on the wikki, template-8 and template-8b [1:53pm] bbogart: How are you Chris? [1:53pm] _hc: bbogart: hey [1:53pm] mamalala: _hc: yeah, right .... [1:53pm] mamalala: bbogart: im fine, thanks... and you? [1:54pm] alx1: bbogart, hello [1:54pm] mamalala: _hc: we could make a small meeting here, i have a pool table ..... [1:54pm] _hc: mamalala: then it would turn into the Pd-list European tour [1:54pm] mamalala: hehe .... [1:54pm] mamalala: europe, the land of open source .... [1:55pm] bbogart: mamalala, good, though I took 4 days to work on my grant project, and I've spent at most 1 hr in that time on it.. too many tangents. [1:55pm] mamalala: bbogart: ouch .... [1:55pm] bbogart: _hc, hey HC, did you see template-8 yet? [1:55pm] bbogart: alx1, hi Alex [1:56pm] _hc: bbogart: no, is it on the list? [1:56pm] _hc: bbogart: let me check... [1:57pm] bbogart: _hc, on my draft wiki page, also this morning I made a multi-page thingy [1:58pm] korayt joined the chat room. [1:58pm] korayt: hello everybody? [1:58pm] bbogart: mamalala, way too much happening in my head. [1:58pm] _hc: bbogart: yeah, duh, I just read up above... [1:58pm] bbogart: hi Koray [1:58pm] _hc: korayt: hellow [1:58pm] mamalala: bbogart: yeah, i konw that feeling ..... same here sometimes .... [1:59pm] bbogart: matju, if your there you mind putting the reference wiki up on the "topic" ? [1:59pm] bbogart: mamalala, wasted over an hour messing with gfax, yuck! [2:00pm] korayt: one general question. has any mac OSX user here made it possible to stream with either oggcast or mp3cast through icecast server? [2:00pm] korayt: I mean with PD [2:00pm] bbogart: korayt, I have not gotten it to work on linux yet... [2:02pm] korayt: bbogart, I see, I tried today both with icecast2 and icecast 1.3, seems like icecast cant really confirm the password received from oggcast and mp3cast [2:02pm] _hc: korayt: I've used oggcast~ [2:03pm] _hc: korayt: yeah there are some odd issues with icecase auth, try jroar, that's what I used [2:03pm] korayt: _hc ok [2:03pm] bbogart: korayt, actually I'm trying to stream theora so there is probably no suprise I'm having troubles! [2:04pm] korayt: _hc I will try with jroar tomorrow [2:04pm] _hc: bbogart: I did relayed theora fine with jroar, if that's any help [2:04pm] _hc: bbogart: the multipage thing looks quite nice, my only concern is maintenance, but I think it should be manageable [2:05pm] bbogart: _hc, which aspect of the multi-page thing? [2:06pm] _hc: lining everything up, since Pd seems to want to bump windows around sometimes when you save them [2:09pm] bbogart: _hc, yes of course, but how else to deal with pages in subpatches? at least its easier than GOPs in that it just moves things around alittle bit, and once its made it should only be resaved by someone familar with the style-guide and keep an eye on things straying. [2:09pm] _hc: bbogart: yeah, upon thinking about it, I think it'll be totally fine [2:09pm] matju: bbogart: what's the url? [2:10pm] _hc:       http://puredata.org/dev/pddp/DraftReferenceDesigns     [2:10pm] Topic changed to "♫ The PureData Chatline ♫ The Diagram Is The Program (tm) ♫ http://puredata.info/ ♫ http://gridflow.ca/ ♪♩ pd doc meeting Tue Nov 29 @ 19.00 UTC (http://puredata.org/dev/pddp/DraftReferenceDesigns) ♩♬♫♩♪♩" by matju. [2:10pm] _hc: bbogart: it doesn't really matter if the pages aren't perfectly aligned also [2:11pm] _hc: matju: oops, just http://puredata.org/dev/pddp is the root, http://puredata.org/dev/pddp/DraftReferenceDesigns is for the templates that we are talking about now [2:11pm] bbogart: matju, thanks [2:11pm] Topic changed to "♫ The PureData Chatline ♫ The Diagram Is The Program (tm) ♫ http://puredata.info/ ♫ http://gridflow.ca/ ♪♩ pd doc meeting Tue Nov 29 @ 19.00 UTC (http://puredata.org/dev/pddp) ♩♬♫♩♪♩" by matju. [2:11pm] _hc: matju: thanks [2:11pm] _hc: matju: hello, by the way [2:12pm] korayt: bbogart, I think it looks really clear, and easy to follow what it says [2:12pm] bbogart: _hc, I agree they just need to be closeish. The only odd this is that the first page is the "parent" so it stays open while the subsequent pages open and close... I did not think of any way around that though. [2:12pm] _hc: bbogart: its fine, its a nice solution, I like it a lot [2:13pm] _hc: a back button would be nice too, with colors [2:13pm] bbogart: I was actually not considering multi-page reference pages, but this could be handy for the tutorials as well, should be the same method. [2:13pm] bbogart: korayt, any other comments about template 8/8b ? [2:13pm] bbogart: Is andre around? Whats the update on the font-scaling issues? [2:14pm] _hc: bbogart: yes, tutorials should have a navigation thing, but I am working on one that is file/abstraction based, rather than subpatch based [2:14pm] _hc: bbogart: I think that would work better for tutorials so you don't have to have everything loaded and running [2:14pm] bbogart: _hc, ahh... back eh... should be easy enough to plug in... just - rather than +... I guess the bang should be just "next" and "prev"? [2:15pm] bbogart: _hc, ok.. could something like that work for reference files also? [2:15pm] bbogart: but then are we stuck with help-float1 help-float2 help-float3 [2:15pm] _hc: it could, but I like your thing better for reference files, then they will be just one file [2:16pm] alx1: darsha can't make it [2:17pm] _hc: bbogart: what about using [button] for the buttons? [2:17pm] bbogart: _hc, that reminds me about early ideas we talked about in terms of modularity, customizing workshops from modules. Have you through about that stuff in the development of your file-based tutorial navigation? [2:17pm] _hc: bbogart: never mind, its probably too much [2:17pm] alx1: but I'm sure she would like to see the use of canvas to highlight the object [2:17pm] bbogart: alx1, too bad, could you remind her to give feedback on the stuff it sounds like we're currently accepting? I'm not hearing a "neh" for template 8b [2:18pm] bbogart: _hc, rather than bang... hmmm.... there is not hidden send/receive for button... [2:18pm] bbogart: Actually you could tinker with popup for jumping to a particular page (more for tutorials) [2:18pm] matju: _hc: hello. [2:18pm] _hc: bbogart: yeah, never mind, I think the [bng]s work well [2:19pm] korayt: bbogart, highlighting objects seems like works ggod at template 8b [2:19pm] korayt: matju, hello [2:19pm] alx1: bbogart, the page turner is cool [2:19pm] _hc: I like the highlighting, but a lighter color would be nice [2:19pm] bbogart: korayt, thanks to Darsha for that one! [2:19pm] _hc: paler [2:20pm] bbogart: _hc, are you looking on OSX or linux HC? [2:20pm] _hc: OSX [2:20pm] matju: _hc: a whiter shade of pale?=) [2:20pm] bbogart: _hc, I've been pushing into pretty damn pale colours as far as my screen is concerned... [2:20pm] _hc: matju: only if you sing it [2:20pm] _hc: bbogart: ah, ok Linux? [2:20pm] alx1: I'm ok with template 8 but others last week were not as fond of canvases as background...any other opinions out there? [2:21pm] _hc: bbogart: let me look on Windows, one sec [2:21pm] bbogart: _hc, please change the colours as pale as you like and upload one to the wiki and then we'll take the average.;) [2:21pm] alx1: bbogart, I guess it is between 'bullets' and bigger canvases right? [2:21pm] _hc: alx1: I think we agreed last week that background canvases are optional and used just to highlight sections or objects [2:21pm] _hc: alx1: I think the objection was having a whole little patch on top of a canvas [2:22pm] _hc: alx1: i.e. the whole example [2:22pm] alx1: _hc, yes [2:22pm] bbogart: _hc, OSX also, I think by default OSX is paler (why I asked if you were on linux) [2:22pm] bbogart: alx1, yes, 8 is a pull-back from canvases from 7c. [2:22pm] bbogart: _hc, yes, which we already discussed and I think was resolved, only good for big example patches in tutorials [2:23pm] korayt: I was suporrting canvases last week, I guess it makes things more clear to ffollow, however in template 8b highlighting works when there is a small scale patch [2:23pm] bbogart: Looks a little more quiet today, not so many flying opinions! [2:23pm] _hc: bbogart: yeah, what's that called again?  The overarching brightness?  OSX and SGI are the same, while Linux and Windows are brighter [2:23pm] alx1: so there's consensus with template 8 then [2:23pm] _hc: 8b [2:23pm] korayt: bbogart, i am looking at them with OSX [2:23pm] alx1: with minor color tweaks, yes 8b [2:23pm] bbogart: _hc, I think its just gamma, contrast, which effects colour perception... [2:23pm] _hc: bbogart: ah yes gamma [2:25pm] korayt: I guess canvas is not needed with temp 8b situations [2:25pm] bbogart: Anyhow I think we can probably be happy with anything that does not look too bright Please do propose colours and I'll propose a comprimise. the bang green for example was deadly bright before, I brought that down a few notches. [2:25pm] korayt: temp 8b looks and works just fine:-) [2:25pm] tigital joined the chat room. [2:25pm] bbogart: korayt, are you thinking you want to see more canvases in 8b? [2:26pm] bbogart: korayt, great. [2:26pm] bbogart: Hi Jamie! [2:26pm] alx1: tigital, hello [2:26pm] bbogart: I think we're settled on temlate 8b with colour changes, anyone want to take on paler colours (HC?) [2:26pm] korayt: bbogart, I dont think it needs more canvases [2:27pm] tigital: Hello everybody!  (in my best "Dr. Nick" voice) [2:27pm] _hc: tigital: hey [2:27pm] wip: tigital, hi [2:27pm] korayt: tigital, hello [2:27pm] • alx1 doesn't get the reference, googles for Dr. Nick [2:27pm] _hc: bbogart: bang green is nice [2:28pm] bbogart: _hc, that sounds like a ganggreen pun [2:28pm] tigital: alx1: he's the quack doctor on the simpson's, and always says "hello everybody" when he walks into a room [2:28pm] alx1: tigital, okay I'm up to date [2:29pm] bbogart: tigital, https://puredata.org/dev/pddp/DraftReferenceDesigns [2:29pm] _hc: bbogart: as for the yellow, its not really an issue, if its the only thing, then nevermind [2:29pm] tigital: bbogart: ahh, I forgot about this...guess it's a good time to login... [2:29pm] bbogart: tigital, we're pretty well settled on template 8b [2:29pm] bbogart: _hc, ah just choose a colour and send it to me! [2:29pm] bbogart: tigital, ah, happy accident! [2:30pm] bbogart: for template 8b the "META" stuff should only be on the first page. [2:30pm] bbogart: what do you think of the contents/glossary links? [2:31pm] _hc: bbogart: yes for meta only on first page, there should only be one META section per file [2:31pm] bbogart: _hc, which includes DESCRIPTION... [2:32pm] _hc: y [2:32pm] tigital: so I guess the idea is that everything must fit in a window without scroll bars? [2:32pm] bbogart: (since it is part of the meta-system [2:32pm] bbogart: I just noted that on the wiki [2:32pm] _hc: (FYI: I wrote a script to generate meta, its in scripts/generate-libdir-metafile.sh [2:32pm] bbogart: tigital, the ideal, with multiple pages when needed, but I hope most things will fit on one page. [2:33pm] bbogart: _hc, huh? you already made an indexer for the meta and description data?!?! [2:33pm] bbogart: (why .sh not .tcl?) [2:34pm] _hc: bbogart: because I know .sh well [2:34pm] _hc: bbogart: and it runs on everything [2:35pm] bbogart: _hc,, would the indexer happen from inside PD or outside? or pre-generated for a particular PD dtstro? [2:38pm] bbogart: Is there a lot of interest in talking about the meta-data implimentation stuff, or should we get into philosophy today? [2:40pm] _hc: so for the yellow, how about 255 255 180 [2:40pm] _hc: bbogart: the meta indexer should be in Pd, in C or Tcl probably [2:40pm] _hc: I think it should be a menu option to be able to rebuild it, otherwise it does it at startup [2:41pm] _hc: (FYI: I compose that yellow on Windows) [2:41pm] bbogart: _hc, colour: please change the colours from template-8 and repost it as 8b-HCS and I'll make that into 9 [2:41pm] bbogart: _hc, about indexing I agree on all counts. [2:43pm] bbogart: I propose to change all_about patches to *-about.pd patches, to match the -help and probably -tutorial names [2:43pm] _hc: bbogart: by the way, I haven't done anything with indexing yet, just some stabs at a meta file, it currently isn't used for anything.  I just needed a file to be there for the libdir format to work.  It turns out to be a handy way to havve a META file for libs too [2:43pm] _hc: -about.pd is fine by me [2:43pm] dpro left the chat room. ("0ff") [2:43pm] bbogart: _hc, wow, thats really great. [2:44pm] Sneaky_Bastard left the chat room. [2:44pm] bbogart: any other opinions? I'll add -tutorial to the mix. [2:44pm] bbogart: _hc, should the -about template use the same page-system as reference or use the tutorial method? [2:44pm] _hc: sure why not, then maybe mylibrary-meta.pd for the libdir META file [2:45pm] _hc: bbogart: might as well use the same page system thruout [2:45pm] korayt: _hc, cool then I guess it will be easier to load or unload the libraries? [2:46pm] _hc: korayt: because of libdir or the meta file? [2:46pm] bbogart: _hc, well I'm not sure about the idea of multiple patch files for reference... unless its tricky like: foat-help.pd autoloads float-help/*.pd [2:46pm] korayt: _hc, meta file [2:46pm] _hc: korayt: libdir is a library format that will work with objects written in any language, including Pd, python, etc. and also includes the reference files in it [2:47pm] _hc: korayt: the meta file would be for stuff like author, license, description, then technical details, like which loader to use (standard Pd, python, ruby, whatever) [2:49pm] korayt: _hc, I see, I got the meta file idea wrong, I was mostly thinking about pd external libraries [2:49pm] pikachoo joined the chat room. [2:50pm] _hc: korayt: there are two, a meta file for external libraries in a new format called libdir [2:50pm] _hc: korayt: and a [pd META] subpatch for reference and documentation files [2:50pm] _hc: korayt: the content will be similar, author, description, keywords, etc. [2:50pm] _hc: korayt: with a few special items, like help category, and loader type [2:51pm] _hc: bbogart: I think reference files should be one file too [2:51pm] _hc: e.g. float-help.pd [2:51pm] korayt: _hc, cool it sounds good. [2:53pm] _hc: all this meta info would then be indexed and used in a class browser and docs/help browser [2:53pm] bbogart: _hc, so reference is one file, all_about is one file, and tutorials are the exception? [2:53pm] bbogart: _hc and keyword searching! [2:54pm] _hc: yes! [2:54pm] _hc: bbogart: I think tutorials will [2:54pm] _hc: have more things running, so having them all in one file could cause problems [2:54pm] _hc: also they are more likely to be a lot of files, while reference and about patches woouldn't get over 3-5 pages very often [2:55pm] bbogart: _hc, agreed, but the links solve most of this, hopefully for all_about and reference [2:55pm] bbogart: agreed [2:55pm] bbogart: anywhere you would like me to start the -about.pd template on? we talked about all_about_looping.pd? [2:57pm] _hc: how about a two column version of the help reference? [2:58pm] bbogart: _hc, sounds good, all the style of templat 8 with some of the layout of template 6? [3:00pm] _hc: actualy, something based on template 6 would be better than the two column layout [3:01pm] bbogart: _hc, well it is two colum of sorts... my pd tutorial are full-on two column [3:01pm] _hc: yes, I mean, an example column + text column is better than two text columns [3:03pm] Sneaky_Bastard joined the chat room. [3:04pm] bbogart: _hc, I think that could work very well I'll try and get something done for next week. [3:04pm] _hc: I am almost done with a rough mockup [3:05pm] bbogart: _hc, great, pass it on when your ready. [3:07pm] tigital: looking really good guys, tho I liked the old darker blue [3:08pm] bbogart: tigital, finally someone else with my eyes! [3:08pm] bbogart: tigital, seems the pale colours work best for most PD folks. [3:08pm] bbogart: they need em PALER!! [3:08pm] bbogart:                         [3:08pm] _hc: I think that the colors needs to be background since we'll be looking at them so much [3:09pm] _hc: hence paler [3:09pm] tigital: _hc:  just checking out the RC5:  why are the CG drawing accelerations in Tk turned off? [3:09pm] _hc: are they? [3:09pm] bbogart: ok, I've logged notes for these changes we talked about and what we have agreed to do. I did not make any notes on the [meta] stuff, but thats a bigger topic we can deal with a little later. [3:09pm] _hc: tigital: oh, that's Miller's comment, they are on by default in Tcl/Tk AFAIK [3:09pm] bbogart: i did notice RC4 was not antialiased... [3:09pm] tigital: _hc:  yes:  this line should be uncommented:  #    set tk::mac::useCGDrawing 1 [3:10pm] _hc: bbogart: only lines greater than 1 are anti-aliased [3:10pm] _hc: having 1 pixel lines antialiased makes all of the boxes look out of focus [3:11pm] _hc: ideally, we'd have anti-aliasing only turned on for diagonal lines and circles [3:11pm] tigital: _hc:  also, I still really really believe that the binary should be named PureData, for reasons we've discussed [3:11pm] bbogart: hehe, I got used to the look, I don't see it as out-of-focus, do you get eye-strain from it? [3:11pm] tigital: _hc:  I think anti-aliasing is fine for greater than 1 [3:11pm] _hc: its easy to try, but for this release its going to be Pd.app.  I want to change as little as possible now that its running stable [3:12pm] bbogart: korayt, did you read the workshop philosophy stuff? [3:12pm] tigital: sure [3:12pm] _hc: bbogart: maybe you get used to it, but it always felt strange to me [3:12pm] tigital: _hc:  finally, there are two help menu's? [3:13pm] bbogart: _hc, I got a tip about the bugs for pt.entry not working, I'll try and get something fixed in CVS asap. [3:13pm] korayt: bbogart, I read last week, I will just take a look at it now [3:13pm] bbogart: hc_, I did not yet try to reproduce it but yes, I ended up with two help menus at one point, maybe due to those weird ln errors I saw in the console. [3:13pm] _hc: tigital: this readme seems to say that set tk::mac::useCGDrawing 1 [3:13pm] _hc: is default    http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/tktoolkit/tk/macosx/README?rev=1.10 [3:14pm] bbogart: korayt, though it seems we're not so much into the philosophy as the implimentation this week! [3:14pm] korayt: bbogart, yes it seems like [3:14pm] _hc: tigital: the two help menus is a bug, it'll go away once we build a proper help browser [3:14pm] tigital: _hc:  okay, that's news to me [3:14pm] _hc: tigital: the Help menu is currently a temp hack [3:14pm] korayt: bbogart, do you want to leave philosophy to next week? [3:14pm] tigital: _hc: but the help browser is realllllly nice [3:15pm] _hc: tigital: it should be a window unto its self, not a cascading menu [3:15pm] bbogart: korayt, have any strong feelings about what is written? stuff that is missing? etc..? [3:16pm] _hc: let's do philsophy now [3:16pm] tigital: _hc:  sounds like it'd be easier to navigate that way, perhaps even with a tree view... [3:17pm] bbogart: tigital, lots of ideas around this, Matju is convinced the catagories should be generated from the keywords dynamically, some argue a fixed set of catagories is impossible. eyesweb is a good example of a bad tree of objects [3:17pm] tigital: _hc: one more thing:  can ya include extensions/gui/ix in the future?  they're neat [3:18pm] _hc: already did [3:18pm] _hc: then build [3:18pm] _hc: except most of them need tcl extensions to work [3:18pm] _hc: oops the next build [3:18pm] tigital: _hc: not most of them, only like two or three [3:19pm] tigital: _hc: and at that, I think one just needs tcl/tk 8.5:  mat [3:19pm] _hc: tigital: actualy most of them [3:19pm] _hc: if you grep require *.wid, I think about 2/3 have sometihg [3:19pm] _hc: bbogart: for every fixed set, there can be a "misc" [3:20pm] _hc: bbogart: which might be preferrable to errant categories all over the place, which is likely to happen [3:20pm] _hc: bbogart: just look at how the CVS is organized [3:20pm] tigital: _hc: hmm, they are in flux... [3:22pm] bbogart: _hc, yep. I think you and I were inline on that whole discussion. Anyhow we can deal with that a little later, better to have content to index first! [3:23pm] _hc: bbogart: yes, and we can start with some generic categories, and change them whenever necessary.  I think that fixed categories, which are not set in stone is the best solution [3:24pm] bbogart: _hc, yup. [3:26pm] bbogart: _hc, what about the idea of high-level abstractions at the start and drilling down into more detail? The abstractions then become an extension of the tutorials, as complex examples. Problem is the amount of effort involved in building them is higher, then there is the "easiest" or "fastest" wat to put a video window on screen, lots of arguments about which visual libs to use. Somehow I feel that the intro stuff should not worry so much abou [3:26pm] bbogart: t particular libs and just getting video on the screen. [3:29pm] _hc: yes, quick results are good, but there should also be a ground up section of the tutorial as well [3:29pm] _hc: so starting with a basic pixeltango patch, then start again from scratch [3:29pm] korayt: bbogart, shall we leave philosophy next week? [3:30pm] korayt: bbogart, I might need leave very soon [3:30pm] _hc: ok, that's fine by me [3:30pm] _hc: I am posting my tweaked yellow, with a couple other minor tweaks... one sec [3:31pm] bbogart: korayt, Thanks for putting up with the implimentation talk! [3:32pm] tigital: bbl [3:33pm] bbogart: tigital, seeya [3:33pm] bbogart: korayt, if you have any inspirations please post to the wiki. [3:33pm] _hc: ok, here it is: https://puredata.org/dev/pddp/pddp-drafts/template-8c.pd/download [3:33pm] bbogart: I guess same time next week? [3:33pm] alx1: sure [3:33pm] _hc: sure [3:33pm] korayt: so, is it ok for everybody to meet next week here at the same time to talk about the philosophy? [3:33pm] korayt: cool [3:33pm] aalex joined the chat room. [3:33pm] _hc: yes [3:34pm] bbogart: _hc, thanks [3:34pm] bbogart: fine for me [3:34pm] korayt: alright then, I am leaving, take care everybody and see you!!! [3:34pm] _hc: korayt: bye [3:34pm] alx1: korayt, ttys [3:35pm] bbogart: Bye Koray! [3:35pm] korayt: bye [3:35pm] korayt left the chat room. ("Leaving") [3:36pm] bbogart: I'm posting a question on the philosophy wiki about top-down botton-up. you see i've not been so pleased with the results of my bottom up approach so far.. [3:36pm] bbogart: in terms of students retaining information and being exited to keep using it. [3:37pm] bbogart: FYI I think pixelTANGO is not high-level enough for what i have in mind. [3:39pm] _hc: hmm [3:39pm] _hc: sounds more like example patches then [3:40pm] bbogart: not example patches, because they are not exposed, only used... mini-applications maybe... [3:42pm] slvmchn joined the chat room. [3:45pm] matju: bbogart: what's the difference between example patches and mini-applications? [3:46pm] alx1: got to go...ttys [3:47pm] alx1 left the chat room. ("Leaving") [3:47pm] bbogart: matju, an example patch is made to show the student how to do something, the mini-application just allows them to do it. [3:47pm] _hc: ah, ok applications, so its like: play with this for a while, now let's see how its build [3:48pm] kliger left the chat room. ("Leaving") [3:49pm] bbogart: _hc, somethign like that. I posted some ideas to the philosophy wiki. The question is the onion effect, how much to give away without freaking them out... [3:49pm] _hc: (FYI: I am working on dev/pddp/FrontPage right now) [3:50pm] bbogart: I teach artists, the vast majority of which have no even used max, maybe some flash and html thats about it. [3:50pm] bbogart: They see the great potencial in the complex examples, and they get the low-level stuff, but there are not enough steps to bridge to two to really keep them using pd. at best 1 in each group will continue to use PD, 1/10. [3:52pm] bbogart: _hc, cool, I think the wiki is a bit of a mess now, think you could amalgamate some of my content with that to make "bbogart's blah" disapear? [3:53pm] _hc: yup,that's what I am doing [3:53pm] bbogart: _hc, thanks HC, its really ugly right now! (and my names seem less well chosen in the new context) [3:54pm] slvmchn: do any of you use the linux 2.4 low latency kernels? [3:55pm] slvmchn: i was browsing last night and came across the LAD page, and their low latency links... at least one of those pages had grand claims [3:55pm] slvmchn: i only ask because i tend to get xruns in jack using alsa [3:55pm] bbogart: slvmchn, using 2.6.13-ck5 on this machine and 2.6.14-ck at work [3:55pm] _hc: slvmchn: there was some recent discusson on the list about this [3:56pm] slvmchn: _hc: do you have a link to the list? [3:56pm] slvmchn: bbogart: are those the more recent ones? the latest ones i could find were 2.4 oens [3:56pm] slvmchn: ones* [3:56pm] slvmchn: i had a realtime fedora kernel in my last setup but it didn't work right [3:57pm] _hc:       http://puredata.org/community/lists     [3:57pm] bbogart: slvmchn, I compiled mine myself, 2.6.14 is now "stable"  2.4 is olllddddd [3:57pm] slvmchn: yeah that's what i thought [3:57pm] slvmchn: it works quite nicely? [3:57pm] slvmchn: a considerable drop in latency? [3:58pm] tigital left the chat room. (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) [3:58pm] bbogart: slvmchn, I've only been doing video stuff with it... I've heard it was helping with latency, but I can't presoanlly attest. No low-latency HW here. [3:59pm] slvmchn: ok... so what's the advantage then for you? and what externs are you using for video mostly? [4:00pm] stephanb joined the chat room. [4:00pm] slvmchn: sorry to be so inquisitive, i'm very curious [4:00pm] slvmchn: minD talks a lot about the realtime kernels [4:02pm] bbogart: slvmchn, using Gem mostely, I'm no expert about bottlenecks in performance and so on, but I use -ck since it was recommended so it could be worth a try for you. [4:02pm] bbogart: hi Steph! you just missed the "action" how are ya? [4:02pm] stephanb: bbogart: good. recovering from a nasty cold [4:03pm] bbogart: stephanb, than fun of the start of winter, did you get that freezing rain that montreal did? [4:03pm] slvmchn: i'll have to check it out, thanks bbogart... yeah so far for video i've only really used Gem and Framestein.... but everything in Gem i've done is straight up 3d openGL so far, no real video maniuplation of mpegs or anything.... i played Framestein for that (avi's actually) but i'm pretty sure development on it has been halted [4:03pm] stephanb: bbogart: no we had fairly mild weather in london, and then suddenly really cold [4:04pm] bbogart: slvmchn, PDP and gridflow and cool also [4:05pm] bbogart: stephanb, yuck! [4:05pm] bbogart: _hc, anything else you want to talk about? I should be off, i just sent my notes to the list. [4:05pm] slvmchn: yes that's what i hear, i have yet to get into gridflow though (one thign at a time :-D) [4:06pm] _hc: bbogart: I am done for today, I'll add your notes and the log to the wiki [4:06pm] bbogart: slvmchn, try asking on #goto10 on irc.goto10.org somtime, lots of kernel knowledge there [4:06pm] _hc: bbogart: check out the wiki, the reorg is basically done [4:07pm] slvmchn: my only concern is whether or not any other xterns will use my nvidia card for hardware acceleration, i don't think framestein did... Gem does (cause of openGL) [4:07pm] bbogart: _hc, good work HC, I'll work on the template stuff this week. I'll talk to you soon. [4:08pm] bbogart: slvmchn, note that many of the gem pixel effects are CPU rendered, actually I think they all are. Only the 3D stuff is rendered on the GPU.. more or less.. [4:08pm] _hc: bbogart: ok, ttys, I will post my first about template in a bit [4:09pm] bbogart: cool, seeya all! [4:09pm] bbogart left the chat room. ("Leaving") [4:09pm] aym3ric: pff [4:09pm] aym3ric: just back online now [4:10pm] aym3ric: _hc: sorry for missing the meeting will look at the log! [4:10pm] aym3ric: internet was down here today [4:10pm] _hc: next time, bummer about the internet [4:10pm] _hc: posting the log now [4:11pm] tgrill joined the chat room. [4:11pm] slvmchn: bbogart: interesting... well if anything i did at least notice a considerable difference between my current card and my old one that came with my desktop [4:11pm] _hc: tgrill: hey [4:11pm] tgrill: hey all! [4:11pm] slvmchn: i just hope that difference in speed/clarity carries through to other video applications [4:11pm] slvmchn: pdp/gridflow/etc. [4:11pm] slvmchn: hey tgrill [4:22pm] _hc: bye all, time to get to work