[1:44pm] _hc: in case any of you here for the Docs meeting didn't see this: http://puredata.org/dev/pddp/
[snip]
[1:54pm] fbar: pland: it's here: http://puredata.org/dev/pddp/PDDPMeetingAgenda
[snip]
[2:01pm] bbogart: Hello all
[2:01pm] pland: hey ben
[2:01pm] oskude: carmen, ok
[2:02pm] _hc: bbogart: hey
[2:02pm] alx1: mamalala, gotcha
[2:02pm] Sneaky_Bastard: Aspect?
[2:02pm] alx1: bbogart, hello
[2:02pm] korayt: bbogart: hello Ben
[2:03pm] Sneaky_Bastard: Ping Aspect.Dataflow.IRC
[2:03pm] Sneaky_Bastard: hello ?
[2:03pm] darsha: bbogart: heya ben!
[2:03pm] bbogart: hi Koray, glad you could make it.
[2:03pm] matju: carmen: you forgot apt-get install autoconf-some-very-experimental-version
[2:03pm] carmen: Sneaky_Bastard: i think you mean com.dataflow.chat.ping('aspect')
[2:03pm] bbogart: Hi darsha! great group, I'm already happy with the turn out and its not 2 yet.
[2:03pm] mamalala: alx1: but then, its not just counted, its "precalculated" and stored in the flash memory ... so the actual pixel data comes from the memory already, not the controller!
[2:04pm] alx1: mamalala, ahh
[2:04pm] Sneaky_Bastard: PD is written in C, though
[2:04pm] bbogart: brb
[2:04pm] Sneaky_Bastard:                           
[2:04pm] carmen: autoreconf, autoupdate...never heard of those
[2:04pm] Sneaky_Bastard: (*com.dataflow.chat.ping)('aspect'); maybe ?
[2:05pm] Sneaky_Bastard: if "ping" is a function pointer
[2:05pm] pland: I think autoreconf is made up 
[2:06pm] matju: carmen: you mean ((IRCChannel)org.freenode.irc.getConnection().getProperty("#dataflow")).command("CTCP","aspect","ping");
[2:06pm] carmen: excuse me while i puke!
[2:06pm] matju: carmen: your main error was that it wasn't complicated enough for real java programmers
[2:06pm] carmen: yeah
[2:07pm] chun: what's "Template for GUI elements"?
[2:07pm] matju: carmen: this could be expanded further. I can send you a page-long version later on if you want 
[2:07pm] carmen: matju: in x86_64 asm pls
[2:07pm] carmen: was that assembly thing real?
[2:07pm] carmen: i mean the pd 'hello world' object
[2:08pm] bbogart: chun, A standard look/feel for GUIs used in example/tutorial patches.
[2:09pm] alx1: I'm trying to add 'support for unicode' in the wiki...got to remember my user/passwd first
[2:09pm] bbogart: chun, like HCS's dsp toggle thingy
[2:09pm] matju: carmen: if it doesn't compile, it almost would. and it was hand-written. i didn't do gcc -S, else it would be much longer and it would be in GAS syntax, not NASM syntax.
[2:09pm] bbogart: alx1, unicode in desire, or PD?
[2:09pm] matju: carmen: still it was missing the new-function and the setup-function.
[2:09pm] alx1: for special characters, french and german for instance it would be great
[2:09pm] chun: bbogart: a quick example that i can look up?
[2:09pm] bbogart: Anyone see anything glaring missing from the agenda?
[2:10pm] _hc: chun: or even just labeled/colored bangs and toggles for common operations like open, save, start, etc.
[2:10pm] alx1: bbogart, I think it should be in both, Miller said at the pd convention that it should be in there
[2:10pm] _hc: chun: or sliders for amp, pan, etc.
[2:10pm] chun: _hc: ok, i see what you mean now
[2:10pm] _hc: if there are standard elements, you can quickly look at a patch and know how to the use the basics
[2:11pm] alx1: perhaps if desiredata has it, it will appear in PD.  I just wish we could improve on the comment object generally.
[2:11pm] matju: alx1,bbogart: what does miller think of unicode? and if not unicode, then why not iso-latin-1 ?
[2:11pm] bbogart: alx1, wow, thats really amazing.
[2:11pm] pland: bbogart: agenda looks ok (to me)
[2:11pm] alx1: and support for unicode means a lot for being able to teach PD to diverse audiences
[2:11pm] bbogart: Also having standard GUI elements speeds up the creation of patches/tutorials since you don't have to start from scratch.
[2:12pm] alx1: matju, at a party at the kunstlabor, he said he would need to go with unicode
[2:12pm] bbogart: alx1, totally, not to mention to finally visually represent the cultural diversity of its users.
[2:12pm] _hc: alx1: yes, but I don't think Miller woudl do the work, I think someone else would have to write a patch,then we could use it in Pd-extended, then Miller would probably incorporate it
[2:12pm] matju: alx1: why did he say that?
[2:12pm] alx1: matju, I was asking him about accented characters in patches
[2:13pm] _hc: matju: if you are going to do the work to go to iso-latin-1, why not go all the way?
[2:13pm] bbogart: anyone in the house used unicode in an application? I read the PDF spec, but never tried my hand at messing with it. How does the rendering part work? would tcl/tk need to be unicode? (is it?)
[2:13pm] _hc: bbogart tcl/tk would probably have to be unicode
[2:13pm] matju: _hc: because going to iso-latin-1 would be a lot easier?
[2:13pm] _hc: matju: ok, if that is the case...
[2:14pm] _hc: matju: it would be a start
[2:14pm] fbar: while I definitely think unicode or iso-latin would be good, I still must also say, that all the workshops I did were held in english. 
[2:14pm] _hc: "Tcl provides completely transparent Unicode support throughout the language,"
[2:14pm] matju: _hc: however i haven't looked at unicode support in Tcl
[2:14pm] _hc:        http://www.i18ngurus.com/docs/985306320.html    
[2:15pm] _hc: as of 8.4. something
[2:15pm] bbogart: fbar, indeed this is probably common, but for example I started using pmpd when it was all french, now I can't get out of the [lia] [masse] mindset.
[2:15pm] matju: fbar: last year i've held a GridFlow workshop in French.
[2:15pm] aym3ric: fbar: yeah i think before digging into localisation it would be better simply to start with a proper english doc
[2:15pm] _hc: bbogart: that's probably easier since you've had some french
[2:15pm] fbar: well, you canadians might have a differet view. 
[2:15pm] bbogart: hi Aymeric!
[2:16pm] _hc: bbogart: [lia] seems like a name to me
[2:16pm] aym3ric: bbogart: hello 
[2:16pm] _hc: fbar: exactly
[2:16pm] _hc: fbar: hey
[2:16pm] oskude: i think unicode is nice, but i would NEVER use computer/software with other language than english  (and my mother language is finnish, and i now speak only german..)
[2:16pm] _hc: aym3ric: hey
[2:17pm] korayt: I think unicode or iso-latin would be good too, even because of its nature most of things could be hangled in English, but it should serve for other languages too
[2:17pm] aym3ric: _hc: hi there
[2:17pm] _hc: oskude: we can keep Pd in english, but it would be nice to have docs in other languages
[2:17pm] korayt: oskude: moi:-)
[2:17pm] darsha left the chat room. ("Leaving")
[2:17pm] oskude: _hc, yup, i dont really have nothing against that...
[2:17pm] oskude: korayt, terve 
[2:17pm] fbar: _hc: That's true: not all documentation reading happens in workshops.
[2:17pm] alx1: fbar, I know
[2:17pm] bbogart: I think the ability to properly comment any patch (even with all english object names) in any language can only be a benifit to the new user, who is afterall the central point of this meeting, the new user.
[2:18pm] korayt: oskude: I am not a finnish speaking person, but I live in Helsinki at the moment
[2:18pm] fbar: _hc: most people learn Pd by reading tutorials, and having them in their native tongue is a nice thing.
[2:18pm] oskude: korayt, nice 
[2:18pm] _hc: fbar: for sure
[2:18pm] korayt: oskude: I can still understand some finnish:-)
[2:18pm] bbogart: did eveyone have a chance to check out the Wikis?
[2:18pm] pland: limiting documentation to english seems like a bad idea
[2:18pm] oskude: fbar, second that
[2:18pm] _hc: fbar: especially for people who dont' speak english 
[2:18pm] pland: not providing translators with a way to volunteer effort is a waste, IMHO
[2:19pm] darsha joined the chat room.
[2:19pm] maltesteiner: i support th unicode / multilang. idea, would attract more users worldwide like france, spain, asia etc
[2:19pm] aym3ric: ok so concretely who will implement unicode in pd ? and when ?
[2:19pm] _hc: pland: first we need to get a complete workshop in place, then we can work on translations
[2:19pm] fbar: anyway: Probably the tutorials will first be written in english, and then get translated.
[2:19pm] alx1: oskude, I was thinking of comments, not objects
[2:19pm] aym3ric: chun, matju: is DD unicode ?
[2:19pm] alx1: oskude, (sorry for the delay)
[2:20pm] pland: _hc: true enough, just my 2p for unicode, s'all
[2:20pm] _hc: alx1: exacty
[2:20pm] chun: aym3ric: that's very possible, but DD needs to be functional and tested first, i think
[2:20pm] oskude: alx1, renaming objects ? yup, not a good idea
[2:20pm] _hc: chun: sounds like a good idea
[2:21pm] _hc: chun: how close before a test relase/
[2:21pm] bbogart: Since we're all used to using english to talk about PD, I think its a logical start for PD workshops/tutoruals/curriculum.
[2:21pm] aym3ric: bbogart: yup
[2:21pm] chun: _hc: should be soon (months), i think, matju?
[2:21pm] alx1: bbogart, sure
[2:21pm] korayt: bbogart, yes
[2:22pm] pland: bbogart: true
[2:22pm] oskude: yup, before we can start to translate, we got to have the english ones first
[2:22pm] bbogart: I'm just bringing up the wiki to see what has been added since I last looked at it.
[2:22pm] matju: aym3ric: i dunno, we would have to get DD to work first
[2:22pm] bbogart: Did anyone not have a chance to add anything they think is highly relivant?
[2:22pm] alx1: bbogart, but translation is often left to the end when everyone's burnt out 
[2:22pm] matju: chun,_hc: right now i'm more concerned by money than by dd
[2:23pm] _hc: matju: c'est la vie
[2:23pm] oskude: i assume its intentional that the pd devel cvs has no reference nor examples ? (thats why this meeting?)
[2:24pm] bbogart: alx1, Well we have to try hard to keep everyone from burning out,I guess that would be answered in how to approach the development. I would say that translation should happen once each module is complete, that is each small peice when its done gets translated. One issue is dealing with changing the original the translation was based on and then all the translations need to change to reflect that. To some degree inevitable.
[2:24pm] maltesteiner: matju: same here  I am going to apply for some cobol programming jobs, yuck
[2:24pm] fbar: maltesteiner: hi malte!
[2:25pm] bbogart: oskude, I think we all here think that PD's documentation (rather how new people learn to use it) is a significant weakness.
[2:25pm] _hc: oskude: donno about devel, but this meeting is about starting a foundation for standardized tutorials, docs, and workshops
[2:25pm] maltesteiner: hi frank
[2:25pm] alx1: bbogart, that's correct, let's keep it in mind though
[2:25pm] alx1: we should move on to the agenda
[2:25pm] matju: maltesteiner: COBOL!!! augghhhh!!! poor you
[2:25pm] _hc: bbogart, alx1: I am sure there are grants for translating into French there, money helps with burnout 
[2:26pm] bbogart: oskude, the idea is to develop that part of PD, it does exist, just not in a way that makes people really want to learn PD.
[2:26pm] _hc: maltesteiner: cobol!  wow
[2:26pm] maltesteiner: matju: yes, thats gridflow -err- batchflow  but I learned it some years ago and why not
[2:26pm] alx1: not sure, I'd love to get a contract for such a project for schools but I don't know where to apply
[2:26pm] aym3ric: well sorry, for me translation is really low priority ... to say the least. it's the last of the last bit of a documentation project, i think the template talk for help and doc is a more important topic now.
[2:26pm] bbogart: _hc, this is a good point, if translation is done at the end then it could be a grant initiative, seperate from the main development of the "curriculum".
[2:27pm] _hc: aym3ric: yes
[2:27pm] oskude: bbogart, yup, and i think the first people look is the reference (to see what objects they have)
[2:27pm] fbar: Okay, to say something about point1: "How PD should be taught." I am a big fan of "idioms" lie [f0]x[+1]. Maybe we can start an "idom collection"??
[2:27pm] _hc: so has everyone seen the PDDP patchs?
[2:27pm] stffn left the chat room. (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[2:27pm] alx1: aym3ric, notice I asked for unicode support not translation 
[2:27pm] _hc: fbar: can you explain what you mean by idiom more?
[2:27pm] maltesteiner: @alx1: in germany there is so french institution for support french stuff
[2:28pm] oskude: _hc, not yet...
[2:28pm] aym3ric: _hc: not yet i admit, url? i look at it right now 
[2:28pm] bbogart: fbar, lets jump into philosophy after a little talk about what is already done (as HC asks)
[2:28pm] aym3ric: alx1: hehe yes 
[2:28pm] _hc: aym3ric: they are in CVS, or in the pd-extended builds
[2:28pm] korayt: fbar, so what do you mean with idioms?
[2:28pm] _hc: I put up a quick tarball, one sec
[2:29pm] fbar: bbogart: okay, lets deal with idoms later... ;(
[2:29pm] aym3ric: cool thx _hc 
[2:29pm] fbar: ... or should I explain more?
[2:29pm] bbogart: fbar, Its #2 on the list! 
[2:29pm] • aym3ric slaps fbar 
[2:29pm] • fbar slabs aym3ric 
[2:29pm] _hc: aym3ric: http://dropbox.at.or.at/dropbox/pddp-patches.tar.gz
[2:30pm] pland: slapping. huh. interesting 
[2:30pm] _hc: boys, no fighting! ;_
[2:30pm] _hc:                           
[2:30pm] korayt:                           
[2:30pm] fbar: aym3ric and I like slapping and spanking each other.
[2:30pm] pland: ok but so how can we move on with 'how pd should be taught'?
[2:31pm] alx1: wild
[2:31pm] bbogart: Ok, so this meeting is pretty big in terms of content. I think its a good time to define the different aspects of the idea that is: Curriculum (a set of tutorials/workshops that can be taught my a lecturer, or independatly, that all connect to one another.)
[2:31pm] aym3ric: we love that
[2:31pm] _hc: basically, these are based on templates laid out by David Sabine, back in the day
[2:31pm] • aym3ric quick browses the pddp patches
[2:31pm] pland: bbogart: the 'rules for developing tutorials/workshops/curriculum' should help with that bit, right?
[2:31pm] bbogart: the subset of curriculum is the tutorials. I'm imaging these are something like the pd-lecture pages, but not like the PDDP reference guides.
[2:32pm] _hc: yes, also like fbar's tutorials
[2:32pm] bbogart: pland, rules/standards will be important dor sure.
[2:32pm] _hc: which you can step thru one-by-one
[2:32pm] aym3ric: oooooh i remember these patches 
[2:32pm] aym3ric: ok i know them
[2:32pm] bbogart: exactly.
[2:33pm] pland: the fbar tutorials could server as standard-making. they do follow each other well structurally
[2:33pm] _hc: all_about_looping is a decent example of layout and content, tho it could use more
[2:33pm] bbogart: tutorials may have sub-groups as well, but lets just stick with curriculum contains tutorials for now.
[2:33pm] aym3ric: so anyone is keeping these patches up to date or have they been sleeping in th cvs ?
[2:33pm] _hc: makefilename-help is good example of a reference patch
[2:33pm] _hc: aym3ric: I've been working on them quite a bit
[2:34pm] aym3ric: yes i quite like the page setup
[2:34pm] _hc: aym3ric: mostly just putting in ideas when I think of them, so many are incomplete
[2:34pm] aym3ric: it's much more readable than Gem's template
[2:34pm] bbogart: On one of the wiki's I send with the agenda includes a template for a new PDDP that was agreed on by some.
[2:34pm] bbogart: _Hc, have the changes you have been doing been connect with that PDDP template on the wiki for float?
[2:35pm] fbar: regarding tutorials as I did them: They have to be split into different patches. Each of the parts should explain only a little bit, like eating with a tiny spoon. Redundance is good, motivation about the "why" is important.
[2:35pm] _hc: bbogart: no, I haven't really done anything with templates, just filled in content mostly
[2:35pm] _hc: fbar: yes, and reusing concepts that were just learned
[2:35pm] oskude: oh yeah, makefilename-help looks good...
[2:35pm] bbogart: _hc, ah, indeed template could stand for both content shell and design of layout.
[2:36pm] _hc: fbar: but to start with, we need to have a template, a layout, to work with
[2:36pm] fbar: Maybe the reference docs should hint at "related indepth tutorials"
[2:36pm] bbogart: I'm not thought very much about the connection between say a tutorial, an all_about patch, and a reference patch. HC, Any ideas?
[2:36pm] pland: bbogart: you are talking about https://puredata.org/Members/bbogart/PDDPTemplates , right?
[2:37pm] aym3ric: fbar: i think this pddp template would be perfect for a new help file system, for a tutorial that's not good
[2:37pm] _hc: fbar: yes, I am all for linking.  I think the way to do it is to have "all about" patches
[2:37pm] bbogart: pland, yes
[2:37pm] _hc: then reference patches link to all about patches, and all about patches link to tutorials
[2:37pm] _hc: and tutorials link to all  abouts
[2:38pm] bbogart: aym3ric, exactly. I'm not sure how they should co-exist. I guess an all_about patch is a reference patch for a topic rather than a particular object, is that fair to say?
[2:38pm] aym3ric: _hc: sounds good to me
[2:38pm] aym3ric: bbogart: i would _hc defof reference being one object,
[2:38pm] _hc: bbogart: yes
[2:38pm] aym3ric: then all_about is a theme
[2:39pm] bbogart: all_about_looping is a good example of ways of approaching looping, linking to object reference patches
[2:39pm] aym3ric: then a tutorial is a step by step course
[2:39pm] pland: how does hc's work on pddp patches relate to the template bbogart is proposing?
[2:39pm] _hc: aym3ric: yes, reference i.e. *-help.pd is for one object
[2:39pm] _hc: pland: bbogart's templates would be used for the exsiting pddp content and future too
[2:40pm] pland: hc: but you've been just adding content to old template (sabine?)
[2:40pm] aym3ric: ok so basically what we should do now is to agree on how those 3 are linked to eachother ? right ?
[2:40pm] _hc: pland:  yes
[2:40pm] pland: wow all_about_looping is really good
[2:40pm] _hc: pland: thanks
[2:41pm] aym3ric: i personnaly like the way _hc described it's very simple, ref -> all_about -> tutorial
[2:41pm] _hc: aym3ric: and tutorial -> all_about
[2:41pm] aym3ric: _hc: yup
[2:41pm] bbogart: I'm writing notes on this as we speak.
[2:42pm] pland: yup that's recursive enough without missing the point
[2:42pm] pland: seems intuitive enough, too
[2:42pm] aym3ric: ok everyone who's ok with that raise your /me
[2:42pm] ClaudiusMaximus: how would bi-directional linkage work? will there be (or is there already?) a [see-also patchname] object that sends a message to Pd to open the patch, because i'm not a fan of the current 'see also' comment with instantiated objects acting as links
[2:42pm] bbogart: do reference files link to all_about patches, or just the other way around?
[2:42pm] • shiro        incompatible encoding    
[2:42pm] • aym3ric        incompatible encoding    
[2:43pm] pland: last pd workshop I gave, students had no way (that they could identify right away) of going from reference to tutorials, so that would be great to solve
[2:43pm] stffn joined the chat room.
[2:43pm] aym3ric: we're two ! let's take over the chan!
[2:43pm] • ClaudiusMaximus   thinks that linkage is fine
[2:43pm] _hc: bbogart: both ways  ref <-> all_about <-> tutorials
[2:43pm] aym3ric: 3!
[2:43pm] fbar: we need to be carefull with recursive loops in pd: If a [stuff] tutorial contains [all_about_stuff] then we cannot include [all_about_stuff] in [stuff].
[2:43pm] _hc: bbogart: just not ref -> tutorials
[2:43pm] _hc: fbar: we can use [pddplink] so that's not a problem
[2:43pm] • pland +1
[2:43pm] bbogart: do we need linking from all_about to reference when considering the 'help' menu for each object?
[2:44pm] ClaudiusMaximus: _hc: all_about => ref  is already there via the help menu, or?
[2:44pm] pland: bbogart: yes, we do, ideally
[2:44pm] • chun        incompatible encoding    
[2:44pm] _hc: ClaudiusMaximus: no, I mean like "related objects"
[2:44pm] fbar: _hc: ah i didn't knpw pddp_link.
[2:44pm] _hc: ClaudiusMaximus: so an all_about patch would list all related objects
[2:44pm] ClaudiusMaximus: _hc: ok 
[2:44pm] _hc: fbar: kzrysztof wrote it
[2:44pm] _hc: its in CVS, and pd-extended builds, it does .pd file and http links
[2:44pm] • fbar types "make" in pddp_link
[2:44pm] oskude: ClaudiusMaximus, i agree with you that "initializing/creating" the real object in "see also" is "not good"...
[2:45pm] bbogart: _hc, to refresh that's the one with the web-server in it?
[2:45pm] _hc: bbogart: something like that, I never understood his plan perfectly well, too bad he's not here
[2:45pm] pland: what web server? muh?
[2:45pm] bbogart: Indeed there is no instanciation issue with pddp_link, it'll just open files that are not intiancialed in the calling patch.
[2:46pm] bbogart: pland pddp_link (we should make a wiki page for it) links files. For example:
[2:46pm] _hc: kzrysztof wants a embedded Tcl web server which serves the Pd docs
[2:46pm] chun: 20:43 < pland> last pd workshop I gave, students had no way (that they could identify right away)
[2:46pm] bbogart: if you have a patch with pddp_link float-help.pd
[2:46pm] bbogart: when you click on it, you get the float-help file.
[2:46pm] chun: oops:/
[2:46pm] pland: chun: heh
[2:46pm] bbogart: if you put pddp_link love.html then it opens a brower window with that file.
[2:47pm] pland: bbogart: ok I see (just didn't remember a web server in there)
[2:47pm] pland: bbogart: ah! ok thanks\
[2:47pm] aym3ric: i would prefer avoid any weird hack or exotic externals for writing docs, let's keep it simple, plain pd imho.
[2:47pm] pland: aym3ric: aye
[2:47pm] ClaudiusMaximus: bbogart: cool
[2:47pm] bbogart: I think back links work too, where your html document actually has a hyperlink that loads a patch in pd.
[2:47pm] fbar: aym3ric: I agree with the simple part: pddp should not depend on (m)any externals.
[2:47pm] maltesteiner: aym3ric is right
[2:48pm] alx1: but being able to go pd <-> web page is great for documentation
[2:48pm] _hc: FYI, here are the pddp templates that bbogart was talkign about: http://dropbox.at.or.at/dropbox/pddp-templates.tar.gz
[2:48pm] bbogart: aym3ric, I was not all for the html stuff in there, but I think general file linking with mime types could be very very handy. Its already written anyhow. Actually pddp_link should be part of PD proper.
[2:48pm] Sneaky_Bastard: anyone here have experience with the vncserver ?
[2:48pm] Sneaky_Bastard: I need to make pd run in it
[2:48pm] _hc: aym3ric: except we need the pddplink object
[2:48pm] Sneaky_Bastard: when it starts up
[2:48pm] _hc: aym3ric: other than that, yet
[2:48pm] _hc: yes
[2:49pm] aym3ric: _hc: ok one object is ok i guess, it has been tested on mac/win/lin ?
[2:49pm] bbogart: I think pddp_link could easily be the single required external. (unless that tutorial talks about a specific external object of course)
[2:49pm] fbar: An alternative approach could be filesystems directories: doc/allabout/looping/
[2:49pm] _hc: aym3ric: well, its Kzrysztof, so I'll be the code is solid
[2:49pm] pland: I think template-6 is the best one
[2:50pm] bbogart: aym3ric, worked on OSX and linux for me, never tried windows. Also I wrote some code to make it look like an html hyperlink, but It never got integrated (and I could not figure out how to)
[2:50pm] _hc: aym3ric: let me check on win, yes for osx, and linux
[2:50pm] bbogart: pland, template-6 is the last one?
[2:50pm] pland: bbogart: yes
[2:50pm] bbogart: pland, good, that is the one we all agreed on initially as well. glad you agree
[2:51pm] pland: bbogart: heh well that's ok then 
[2:51pm] aym3ric: one sec
[2:51pm] aym3ric: see
[2:51pm] oskude: how about "constrains" for help patch size, (i got only 1024x768)
[2:51pm] pland: that's really good though, it'll be great to be able to show that to students
[2:51pm] aym3ric: there's a dude 
[2:51pm] aym3ric: he just installed ubuntu
[2:51pm] bbogart: ok, why do we need a link in addition to the object-help method?
[2:51pm] aym3ric: and then he gets the docs,
[2:52pm] aym3ric: he's a newbie, never compiled anything
[2:52pm] fbar: size constrains are important. I'd vote for 800x600 max.
[2:52pm] aym3ric: how do you make the install of the external easy ?
[2:52pm] bbogart: how big is template-6?
[2:52pm] aym3ric: of this pddp_link ?
[2:52pm] chun: fbar: yes, i think that's a good size
[2:52pm] korayt: 800X600 would be best
[2:52pm] _hc: yes [pddplink] already works on all platforms
[2:53pm] fbar: note the "max" in "800x600 max": Preferbly the patches should be smaller.
[2:53pm] maltesteiner: fbar: arent the 800x600 times gone?
[2:53pm] _hc: 800x600 max
[2:53pm] oskude: and then comes the question, are the fonts the same size on all oses ?
[2:53pm] _hc: fbar: definitely
[2:53pm] korayt: stundets had problems with displaying their patches on different resolutions
[2:53pm] bbogart: aym3ric, I think this is easy, for eaching/learning PD the only way is a package, pure::dyne, or OSX .app's or whatever becomes the standard way of distributing.
[2:53pm] fbar: Reason is: people should also have room for their own patches, for copying stuff etc.
[2:53pm] _hc: for example, this $100 laptop, its 640x480, and Pd will run on it
[2:53pm] oskude: I WANT THAT $100 LAPTOP :)))
[2:53pm] _hc: oskude: sadly no, they are quite different
[2:53pm] bbogart: yes fonts, HCS, did you look at the fonts issue recently?
[2:54pm] _hc: bbogart: normand 
[2:54pm] maltesteiner: oskude:dont think so, sometimes patches looks wild
[2:54pm] _hc: oop
[2:54pm] _hc: no
[2:54pm] oskude: _hc, roger. noticed that too 
[2:54pm] aym3ric: bbogart: i see
[2:54pm] oskude: btw, im the font guy "andre schimdt" from list 
[2:55pm] maltesteiner: the $100 laptop is a good argument for unicode and translation!
[2:55pm] bbogart: _hc, I remember something about pixel relative rather than point-sizes?
[2:55pm] _hc: aym3ric: all of this stuff will be included in the pd-extended builds, so it will be very easy to use it all
[2:55pm] _hc: aym3ric: that includes tutorials and workshop materials
[2:55pm] aym3ric: _hc: ok
[2:55pm] pland: argh gotta go, are logs being put on wiki? (sorry can't remember if someone asked on list)
[2:56pm] _hc: pland: yes
[2:56pm] oskude: btw. i like the template-6 most too...
[2:56pm] fbar: oskude: ah, I was wondering who you are. 
[2:56pm] _hc: aym3ric: and I would have released Pd-extended.exe for Win if this meeting hadn't started 
[2:56pm] pland: _hc: one thing I'm missing in trying to follow your work on CVS is a set of instructions on 'howto build a .app' or others...couldn't really find it in the READMEs etc
[2:56pm] aym3ric: (for info: chun, shiro and i need to leave in 1 hour)
[2:56pm] aym3ric: _hc: ok 
[2:56pm] _hc: template 6 is nice, but I think its too big
[2:56pm] bbogart: Again, what was the argument for having all_about link to reference patches other than the normal right-click -> help method?
[2:57pm] • fbar slaps chun, shiro and aym3ric 
[2:57pm] • pland goes cook
[2:57pm] pland: bye
[2:57pm] oskude: fbar, sry for that, wanted to say on the list my irc nick...
[2:57pm] pland left the chat room.
[2:57pm] fbar: oskude: no prob.
[2:57pm] oskude: _hc, yup, a smaller would me "nicer" ...
[2:57pm] • aym3ric slaps fbar
[2:57pm] bbogart: I'm worried 800x600 would be too compressed for something like template-6.
[2:57pm] _hc: bbogart: let's say you want to make a loop, you start with the first looping object you know, then try the all_about.  It then suggests all the possibilities for making loops
[2:58pm] oskude: bbogart, definetly
[2:58pm] bbogart: I got that direction, its the other direction I'm confused about, all_about to referecne
[2:58pm] bbogart: wait, template-6 is 800x600!!!
[2:59pm] oskude: maybe the first help of object should have only "minimum" info, and another link to more info... hmm maybe not so good idea...
[2:59pm] bbogart: (with the OSX window decorations on OSx)
[2:59pm] oskude: bbogart, yeah, but u want to see your patch AND help...
[2:59pm] maltesteiner: its important of documentation that the patches doesnt look scary and messed up
[2:59pm] _hc: bbogart: you're at the all_about, and you want to know all the possible objecst that can be used for looping, so you look at the "related objects" which has a list of pddplinks to them.
[2:59pm] _hc: bbogart: is that what you mean, or the other way?
[2:59pm] maltesteiner: the appearance of pd is a real dealbreaker
[3:00pm] aym3ric: imho template2 is the most readable
[3:00pm] bbogart: _hc, ok so there are not example patches for each object that can be used to looping in the all_about_looping?
[3:00pm] oskude: aym3ric, you, tall, but not wide...
[3:00pm] chun: template-6 is nice, although i would prefer not to have the canvas
[3:01pm] aym3ric:                           
[3:01pm] _hc: bbogart: probably not, since each referecnce page would have an example
[3:01pm] oskude: hmm, full height for help patch, but not so wide. you can easily scroll with mouse-scroll...
[3:01pm] aym3ric: oskude: yup
[3:01pm] bbogart: aym3ric, I think putting the example patches inline with the text is good conceptually, but not so good in out 4:3 and soon 16:9 world. 
[3:01pm] korayt: I would vote for temp 6 too, and canvas might be nice for beginner students
[3:02pm] aym3ric: oskude: and you're not dependant of any complex page setup, alsmot everything can fit there
[3:02pm] bbogart: _hc, ok, perfect, now I get it, so there is a list of links to all the looper-related objects.
[3:02pm] oskude: i take my vote for template-6 back 
[3:02pm] _hc: bbogart: yes
[3:02pm] slvmchn joined the chat room.
[3:02pm] _hc: bbogart: aka "Related Objects"
[3:02pm] aym3ric: bbogart: it's references not doc, it's meant to be next to a patch, not full screen
[3:03pm] _hc: template2 is nice and would work on 640x480
[3:03pm] _hc: plus personally, I like smaller reference patches so that I can see my patch while I am looking at the reference
[3:03pm] oskude: template-2 could be less wider, they gray bar on left could be taken away...
[3:03pm] _hc: all_abouts and tutorials should demand your full attention so its ok if they take up the whole screen
[3:04pm] aym3ric: _hc: i agree
[3:04pm] bbogart: aym3ric, well this is true, but I'm not putting much thought in the saving-screen-space issues anyhow, if a new user can't swap between two large windows on the desktop then they are going to have problems with PD anyway.
[3:04pm] _hc: oskude: it could, but the canvas makes things very clear
[3:05pm] _hc: bbogart: I mean more that you can have them viewable at the same time
[3:05pm] alx1: patches on the lewft in #6 are better than within the text areas
[3:05pm] alx1: s/lewft/left
[3:05pm] oskude: _hc, yes, but they take more space than use... just use the "titles" over the text (like template-1)
[3:05pm] alx1: in #2 I mean, I always go for the example first
[3:05pm] _hc: #3 or #4 are better I think in that regard
[3:05pm] ClaudiusMaximus: the smaller the better for me, with top left corner at (0,0) - i've had problems with patches i made on my desktop opening completely off the visible area of my laptop, the only way to rescue is to maximise the window from the window-list/taskbar/whatever
[3:06pm] _hc: your eyes can really see the sections
[3:06pm] bbogart: _hc, if your using 800x600 your not going to be having a meaningful arragement of windows anyway, between the PD window the patch, and maybe your video windows.
[3:06pm] _hc: ClaudiusMaximus: yes that is a problem, that can be addressed by a sed script, its on my todo
[3:06pm] fbar: I think, tutorial may be rather large, however reference should at most cover half a 800x600 screen, that is not be wider than 300px.
[3:07pm] _hc: bbogart: that is true, I am not saying that you'll be able to view a patch and a reference at 800x600, I mean at 1280x860 on my laptop
[3:07pm] _hc: bbogart: that has the added benefit of fitting on the screen in a usable way on 640x480
[3:07pm] alx1: _hc, I agree, some delimitation helps...I also agree with keeping the width to a max of 640 is good
[3:07pm] bbogart: ok, then 800x600 (or smaller) for the biggest reference page is fine?
[3:07pm] _hc: fbar: 300 is too narrow to be usable
[3:08pm] bbogart: also the float-help has a lot of content in it, not all will be so big, and maybe they need not be..
[3:08pm] _hc: fbar: pd's comments wrap at 410 on the mac
[3:08pm] bbogart: _hc, good note, all these PDDP temlates are based on the PD comment wrapping width.
[3:08pm] _hc: bbogart: they can have many pages, like makefilename-help.pd
[3:08pm] aym3ric: _hc: wait, comments are not wrapping the same on different platforms ?
[3:09pm] bbogart: does anything act the same in PD on all platforms? 
[3:09pm] slvmchn: hehehehe
[3:09pm] • aym3ric sighs...
[3:09pm] bbogart: (in the GUi anyhow)
[3:10pm] _hc: bbogart: canvas, bng, slider sizes do
[3:10pm] _hc: bbogart: its just font size that don't.
[3:10pm] aym3ric: ah well you will be all using pure:dyne soon  
[3:10pm] slvmchn: i had problems in fedora with drawing on arrays, it'd cause the sound to drop out sometimes, on ubuntu now though it's real smooth, no problems so far
[3:10pm] _hc: bbogart: if we fixed the fonts to be based on pixel size, then they should all be the same..
[3:10pm] fbar: _hc: They wrap at 410? Hm, that's bad.
[3:11pm] bbogart: _hc, ok thats great. could that be part of your main.tk hacking? or is it burried elseware?
[3:11pm] _hc: bbogart: its on the todo list, but sadly not very high these days
[3:11pm] aym3ric: ok back to the topic.. which template do we choose for references ? (and yes we should base the text paging on the wrappingrange of couse)
[3:12pm] oskude: _hc, i noticed that as "xfontsel" font size 10 was smaller than "pd" font size 10
[3:12pm] _hc: I like #4 best
[3:12pm] bbogart: I really think limiting the reference pages to 800x600 and smaller is totally fine, no one using an older computer with an 800x600 screen is going to have too much of an issue. Maybe a patch that small is not readable on a 1600x1200 screen, which is not that rare anymore.
[3:12pm] _hc: but the colors could be more subtle
[3:13pm] _hc: bbogart: well, the font sizes aren't really changable, so it doesn't matter how big the canvas is, the fonts will still be tiny on 1600x1200
[3:13pm] aym3ric: _hc: yes it's bit raw
[3:13pm] bbogart: _hc, more subtle than that???
[3:13pm] _hc: I guess I mean closer to white
[3:13pm] _hc: so that the example stands out more
[3:13pm] bbogart: Its almost 800 pixels tall...
[3:14pm] darsha: #4 is good for me
[3:14pm] alx1: _hc, maybe the colors of #6?
[3:14pm] _hc: alx1: that's better
[3:14pm] aym3ric: i vote for 4 with more subtle integration of the titles
[3:15pm] bbogart: _hc, ah I see what you mean with the colours, yes the contrast of #6 is best.
[3:15pm] wip left the chat room. (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- IRC for those that like to be different")
[3:15pm] bbogart: I still think the tallness is an issue, I don't have the multi-page example HC mentioned here.
[3:15pm] _hc: the "more info" section of #6 is better than #4
[3:16pm] _hc: oskude: what's xfontsel?
[3:16pm] chun: i would vote for #2 actually...
[3:16pm] aym3ric: i take back my vote on 4
[3:16pm] aym3ric: i go back to 2 
[3:16pm] aym3ric: it's simple and readable, it can't be wrong! (it's a bargain)
[3:16pm] oskude: _hc i think a tk front end to show installed (bitmap) fonts (i had a screenie on my post in list )
[3:16pm] alx1: _hc, should the 'more info' be html...as a kind of glossary?
[3:17pm] bbogart: before I forget, tutorials will also link to all_about patches as well right?
[3:17pm] chun: for me, it would be easier to make
[3:17pm] korayt: maybe reference could be tall, so temp 2 with temp 6 colors
[3:17pm] aym3ric: ideally i would vote for a mix of 4 and 2
[3:17pm] _hc: alx1: well, maybe "more info" isn't the best term, but it basically means more pages on info, more like "next page"
[3:17pm] chun: but with no canvas behinds objects, maybe?
[3:18pm] Sneaky_Bastard left the chat room. (Connection timed out)
[3:18pm] bbogart: 800x600, means it'll be more like a square, comment wrappy around 400 with max 600 pixels tall.
[3:18pm] _hc: bbogart: yes, tutorials <-> all_about
[3:18pm] alx1: _hc, ok, I was looking at all that content painfully added to comment boxes
[3:18pm] shiro: template mix 4 + 2 = winning team
[3:18pm] wip joined the chat room.
[3:18pm] darsha: chun: The canvas behind the object is important for new users.  It is a helpful guide
[3:19pm] alx1: but template 4 has the example at the top, isn't that what people go for first when opening a help patch?
[3:19pm] bbogart: any grant ideas on how to solve this? (I'm not hearing a good argument against wider rather than taller...)
[3:19pm] oskude: i just found out that it was (atleast for me) more comfortable to patch downwards, and then just navigating with the mouse-scroll up and down (not all directions as i used to) (example: http://www.osku.de/zap-mc-grabber004.pd)
[3:19pm] _hc: alx1: yes, I think its great to have the example at the top
[3:19pm] alx1: bbogart, I think that taller means that the underlying patch will not be obstructed
[3:20pm] slvmchn: i'm going to have to agree with oskude
[3:20pm] _hc: bbogart: for me, its the 640x480 issue
[3:20pm] bbogart: alx1, on a 1024x768, yes, but not on a 800x600?
[3:20pm] korayt: most common complaints from the students is they can not read the patches clearly when there is a load of information, I guess canvas behind the objects would save alot for the beginners
[3:20pm] bbogart: the 200 (or less) column on the side of a 400x600 patch on an 800x600 screen is pointless, it may as well fill the whole 800 pixels wide.
[3:20pm] oskude: korayt, i second that, too much info (first) is not allways good...
[3:21pm] chun: darsha + korayt: from that point of view, i also agree with the canvas issue
[3:21pm] bbogart: korayt, tha canvases really are there just to seperate the content, they are more labour intensive, but it gives a new user a more comfy feeling than the usual pd help patch.
[3:22pm] maltesteiner: i vote for canvas too
[3:22pm] korayt: bbogart: exactly, I think it is good to use canvas
[3:22pm] _hc: and the canvases also serve to guide your eye thru the sections of the poatch
[3:22pm] _hc: you can easily see that its sectrions, where they sstart and end, et.c
[3:22pm] oskude: canvas are very good.
[3:22pm] bbogart: Maybe we should rest on this and post comments on the wiki? Shall we move onto philosophy or try and decide on the template today?
[3:22pm] korayt: _hc: yes , it makes it easy to follow
[3:22pm] _hc: korayt: and easy to skim, which is good for a reference
[3:23pm] _hc: reference = quick info
[3:23pm] korayt: lets move onto philosophy
[3:23pm] _hc: ok, first let's check on the consensus
[3:23pm] alx1: ...or onto dividing some work?
[3:23pm] _hc: somewhere btw 4 and 2, with some elements of 6?
[3:24pm] _hc: alx1: I vote for bbogart doing the tmplates, those 6 are quite nice
[3:24pm] • shiro is pro 4+2+some6!
[3:24pm] aym3ric: _hc: which elements ?
[3:24pm] bbogart: It would be great is someone else could use those templates and come up with a proposal that resembles the consensus, sometimes when it works in your head it does not on the screen.
[3:24pm] bbogart: _hc, haha
[3:24pm] alx1: aym3ric, the color and canvas
[3:24pm] bbogart: _hc, what timing.
[3:24pm] _hc: aym3ric: how "more info" is a section
[3:24pm] bbogart: Ok, I can do it, not befor ethe weekend probably
[3:25pm] bbogart: So other than template-4 with template-6 colours and "more info" any other changes?
[3:25pm] _hc: bbogart: ok, we can leave it to whoever wants it
[3:25pm] darsha: bbogar+koryat+chun...when working on gridflow docs this summer we highlighted specific objects with a small yellow canvas.
[3:25pm] aym3ric: ok isee
[3:25pm] aym3ric: though i really dislike the canvas behind a patch example
[3:25pm] _hc: for certain highlights its good, but not behind a whole exmaple
[3:25pm] alx1: aym3ric, I know it may look clunky but it helps newer users...
[3:25pm] darsha: agree
[3:26pm] bbogart: aym3ric, in template-6 you mean? since its not in template-4. (but for tutorials sometimes you have to highlight a part of a patch, a canvas underneath seems the best way to do that
[3:26pm] korayt: yes, maybe for some highlight only
[3:26pm] _hc: alx1, bbogart: yeah, canvases for highlighting tutorials sounds good, but not in reference patches
[3:26pm] aym3ric: bbogart: yeah i agree when you have a big patch it's cool to highlight one part
[3:27pm] aym3ric: but a whole patch, even example patch ... i don't see the point and the gain in readability is not convincing me
[3:27pm] bbogart: aym3ric, great. So again, any other changes to template-4 that I may have missed? I just have colours and "more info" from tempalte-6
[3:27pm] maltesteiner: not only higlighting but grouping stuff
[3:27pm] bbogart: aym3ric, that was onlt used in template 6 because the patch next to the text did not work very well without some speration.
[3:27pm] alx1: aym3ric, perhaps if it is at the top then that's ok to go without a canvas
[3:28pm] bbogart: we are talking about tempalate-4 right? no canvas behind the patch..?
[3:28pm] alx1: yup
[3:28pm] _hc: y
[3:28pm] korayt: yes
[3:28pm] aym3ric: bbogart: we're taking about a mix of 2, 4 and 6 
[3:29pm] bbogart: ok, that was a lot since I think there is little from #6 we're keeping.
[3:30pm] shiro: if a cancas can help making the structure of a patch more visible, and therefore the content more clear, use it!
[3:31pm] oskude: im for canvases too, but i can live with out them...
[3:31pm] bbogart: anything else from template-6 I should put in template-4?
[3:31pm] chun: so we have the size of 2/4 + the canvas behind examples?
[3:31pm] bbogart: chun? what?
[3:31pm] bbogart: 2/4 +??
[3:31pm] oskude: hmm, actually i dont like canvas behind objects... but dunno why 
[3:32pm] alx1: oskude, it makes it start to look like an application, it restricts the 'flow'
[3:32pm] bbogart: in template-4 I don't think we need them, the frame created by the heading canvases seperates it very well.
[3:33pm] oskude: alx1, or im used to have white objects 
[3:33pm] • chun is confused.....
[3:33pm] aym3ric: ok ok ok ... let's go for canvas ... but pink then
[3:34pm] alx1: I can live without the canvas when the rest of the layout is clear
[3:34pm] oskude:                           
[3:34pm] alx1: aym3ric, fantastic idea
[3:34pm] _hc: canvases seem optional, for tutorials
[3:34pm] korayt: pink?
[3:34pm] shiro: alx1: yup
[3:34pm] bbogart: ok, I'm done interpreting!  I'll post some more designs.
[3:34pm] bbogart: onto philosophy!
[3:34pm] shiro: bbogart: good luck 
[3:34pm] bbogart: or onto all_about and tutorial templates? 
[3:34pm] aym3ric: bbogart: thx for doing the dirty job btw
[3:35pm] korayt: philosophy
[3:35pm] • shiro aplaudes
[3:35pm] • alx1 pats bb on the back
[3:35pm] aym3ric: depends, do we have any templates for all about and tutorial ?
[3:35pm] oskude: bbogart, for me reference should come before all_about (maybe even before tutorials)...
[3:36pm] oskude: i mean object reference, right click on empty canvas > help
[3:36pm] _hc: aym3ric: all_about_looping is something of a template for all_abouts
[3:37pm] bbogart: _hc, that was in CVS right? I'll take a look at that. Though I think all this stuff should look consistant,
[3:38pm] bbogart: maybe different colour for the tutorials vs all_about vs reference, but a similar layout/organization
[3:38pm] chun: yes
[3:38pm] oskude: bbogart, sounds good
[3:38pm] korayt: bbogart: yes, I vote for that
[3:38pm] shiro: me too
[3:39pm] _hc: bbogart: yes, in CVS, or in the tar.gz I posted up above
[3:39pm] oskude: btw, do we have to think about the printability of these patches ?
[3:39pm] aym3ric: ya
[3:39pm] _hc: bbogart: yes, I like the color theme idea
[3:39pm] dmorelli joined the chat room.
[3:39pm] _hc: bbogart: one for reference, one for all_about, one for tutorials
[3:40pm] maltesteiner: bbogart: count me in, thats what colors are for
[3:41pm] aym3ric: oskude: i don't think so as there's no easy way to dump patch layout to a printer except making a snapshot 
[3:41pm] bbogart: printing is important, actually I had an issue trying to print from PD in landscape, only portrait seems possible.
[3:41pm] gisle left the chat room. (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[3:41pm] bbogart: maltesteiner, Thanks Malte! :0
[3:41pm] oskude: aym3ric, roger
[3:42pm] oskude: well, i never printed pd patches...
[3:42pm] maltesteiner: so the colors should be checked on a greyscaleprinter
[3:42pm] bbogart: I could not get figure out how to rotate the PS pages...  So this could be a problem if we can only have portait documents for tutorials...
[3:43pm] bbogart: maltesteiner, yes, good idea
[3:43pm] aym3ric: 15 minutes left for us
[3:43pm] maltesteiner: contrasts works great on screen could suck on paper
[3:43pm] maltesteiner: so a wise choice is to be made
[3:43pm] oskude: who have learnd colors ? 
[3:44pm] bbogart: aym3ric, ok, since your flying away, anything on the agenda you want to talk about particularly?
[3:44pm] korayt: I would suggest to move onto philosophy
[3:44pm] bbogart: ok, there is a page up for that too somewhere
[3:45pm] aym3ric: well, simple question, when do you think we can have a set of templates for ref/about/tut complete (as in agreed and done) ?
[3:46pm] bbogart: aym3ric, I can hammer some ideas out by the end of the weekend, "donness" depends on us I guess. 
[3:46pm] aym3ric: so we could right now set a date for the next template meeting ?
[3:47pm] bbogart: also before the goto10 folks vanish, any preference for the next meeting? same time next week?
[3:47pm] fbar: tuesday is fine with me.
[3:47pm] shiro: around the same time would be perfect!
[3:47pm] aym3ric: also, is anyone has written a tutorial in "pd" so far ? (as in patch based tutorial)
[3:47pm] fbar: aym3ric: I did. 
[3:47pm] • chun too
[3:47pm] aym3ric: next tuesday same time is perfect
[3:47pm] stephanb joined the chat room.
[3:47pm] bbogart: ok, lets do that then. I'll send an email to the list with my notes, and the next meeting.
[3:47pm] aym3ric: fbar: oh you i love you
[3:48pm] _hc: aym3ric: yes, there are a few, fbar, bbogart, and others
[3:48pm] oskude: ive just patched in my hole here for me 
[3:48pm] bbogart: aym3ric, my pd-lecture also, I think there are more too
[3:48pm] _hc: same time next weeek works for me
[3:48pm] tim_ joined the chat room.
[3:48pm] bbogart: anything missing from: https://puredata.org/Members/bbogart/WorkshopPhilosophy
[3:48pm] aym3ric: ok, so many be next week we can hopefully choose the final ref help file, and discuss about tutorial layout ?
[3:49pm] tim_ is now known as tim.
[3:49pm] shiro: anyone who has example of tut link it on wiki?
[3:49pm] _hc: sure, we should come up with some all-about and tutorial layout ideas before the meeting and post them to the list
[3:49pm] korayt: I might join you abit later next week, maybe half an hour late
[3:49pm] aym3ric: _hc: would be great
[3:49pm] bbogart: _hc, please do, I may take a crach at draft templates of those too.
[3:50pm] oskude: i dont have any tuts, but im very interested on help on object reference...
[3:50pm] _hc: shiro  http://puredata.org/docs/workshops
[3:50pm] bbogart: korayt, np
[3:50pm] oskude: *helping
[3:50pm] oskude: i find this very goof https://puredata.org/Members/bbogart/CatagoriesForExternals
[3:50pm] shiro: _hc: thanx!
[3:50pm] oskude: *good
[3:50pm] aym3ric: oskude:  goof :)))
[3:50pm] oskude:                           
[3:50pm] korayt: are we continue with philosophy tonight or leave it to next week as well?
[3:51pm] _hc: bbogart: hey, mind if I move the wiki pages from your members page to the dev/pddp section of the website?
[3:51pm] aym3ric: well chun, shiro and i are leaving now
[3:51pm] fbar: see you, goto10 peers.
[3:51pm] chun: see you all
[3:51pm] shiro: ciao everyone!
[3:51pm] _hc: bye
[3:51pm] aym3ric: but feel free to go on, we still have 2 goto10 spies in this channel 
[3:51pm] maltesteiner: bye
[3:51pm] bbogart: _hc, please do Hans, more logical to be up front than burried in my home folder.
[3:51pm] korayt: ok, see you
[3:51pm] darsha: sidenote: This is what I meant with coloured canvas behind object in question  http://fluxkit.net/~darsha/template_4_coloured_object.pdf
[3:51pm] oskude: bye
[3:51pm] ClaudiusMaximus: bye aym3ric, chun, shiro
[3:51pm] bbogart: bye aym3ric and chun!
[3:51pm] shiro left the chat room. ("leaving")
[3:52pm] aym3ric: bye all, was cool, let's keep this good rythm for the documentation project!
[3:52pm] _hc: darsha: hmm, that's an idea, tho that color is a bit... rough 
[3:52pm] alx1: ciao
[3:52pm] darsha: it is a fast mock up bro
[3:52pm] bbogart: darsha, Ohhhh I get it!!!!
[3:52pm] oskude: darsha, im too used on white objects 
[3:53pm] • aym3ric is idling now
[3:53pm] bbogart: darsha, I think that makes sense, I can mess with colours.
[3:53pm] oskude: darsha, but that looks good to see the object so clearly...
[3:54pm] maltesteiner: darsha: so I see what it meant canvas behind object. ok, with me but I also use canvas to group several objects blonging to a certain functionality visually
[3:54pm] bbogart: of course the canvas will not fit the object with a different "font-bomb" size, which could be a problem for those with worse eyes...
[3:54pm] alx1: color properties for objects and messages!
[3:54pm] bbogart: maltesteiner, I do the same as well, which I think is a whole other thing.
[3:54pm] _hc: bbogart: well, changing fonts doesn't really work for layout anyhow, sadly
[3:54pm] oskude: who codes background color for objects... 
[3:54pm] darsha: alx1: yess
[3:54pm] bbogart: We really need to fix this font issue, any takers?
[3:54pm] _hc: bbogart: we need a better comment object for that
[3:55pm] fbar: I think, using canvases for backgrounds won't work in a workshop situation, though. Too much fiddling.
[3:55pm] oskude: i would be VERY pleased to do fonts... but i dont talk tk (nor c) 
[3:55pm] bbogart: _hc, that is a good point.
[3:56pm] darsha: fbar: right...color properties might be the only way
[3:56pm] oskude: btw, even miller was interested on "embedded" fonts...
[3:56pm] bbogart: fbar, what do you mean?
[3:56pm] maltesteiner: hc: when I remember right comment is borked in max/msp too so we would gain competiveness (ouch is this correct english??)
[3:56pm] _hc: oskude: you can learn, I did in order to hack on Pd,
[3:56pm] mkmita joined the chat room.
[3:56pm] oskude: _hc, i can try, (actually i allready hacked with pd tk:)
[3:57pm] _hc: maltesteiner: (If I remember correcly, ) but we understand 
[3:57pm] fbar: bbogart: i mean, if you patch something live in a workshop or develop a patch, then it is too tricky to use these canvases as backgrounds. For pre-made patches they could work, though.
[3:58pm] oskude: does someone know if tk can use "embedded" fonts (they are "just" bitmap fonts afterall) if not, ill try to investigate on this...
[3:58pm] maltesteiner: is this just me or do you have always to make canvas first and put your stuff on top later?
[3:58pm] bbogart: fbar, oh yes for sure, the canvases are only to situate a patch in a context (comments, etc..) when the patch is the sole focus then its simply plain without extra content seperation
[3:58pm] _hc: I don't know if this is cheating ;), but I made a quick template mockup:
[3:58pm] _hc:        http://dropbox.at.or.at/dropbox/template-4HCS.pd    
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[3:59pm] _hc: maltesteiner: you can cut, then paste to make sure something is on top
[3:59pm] maltesteiner: so a put cnavas in background or lower would be a nice have
[3:59pm] bbogart: I think "send to front' send to back is in the works.. easy from tk
[4:00pm] _hc: bbogart: isn't it based on the obj order in the patch?  In which case, I don't think it would be very easy to implement
[4:00pm] maltesteiner: and handles for canvas to resize them would be luxury
[4:01pm] bbogart: _hc, there are canvas functions for raising and lowering
[4:01pm] alx1: I'm off as well, ttys
[4:01pm] oskude: bye
[4:01pm] korayt: see you alx1
[4:02pm] maltesteiner: bye
[4:02pm] alx1 left the chat room. ("Leaving")
[4:02pm] korayt: I guess we will continue with philosophy next week?
[4:02pm] _hc: bbogart: wow, news to me
[4:03pm] _hc: bbogart: must be in 0.39, haven't played with it much yet
[4:03pm] _hc: bye
[4:03pm] bbogart: _hc, I got your patch, I think the canvases are not thick enogh to visually break up the content, Actually, why are the boxes for selecting the canvas visisible when we're not selecting it?
[4:03pm] darsha: till next tuesday guys
[4:03pm] fbar: darsha: ciao
[4:03pm] oskude: bye
[4:03pm] tim: hi all!
[4:04pm] korayt: ok, I am leaving as well, see you all next Tuesday
[4:04pm] korayt: bye
[4:04pm] oskude: bye
[4:04pm] darsha left the chat room. ("Leaving")
[4:04pm] bbogart: .c raise [tag]
[4:05pm] korayt left the chat room. ("Leaving")
[4:05pm] _hc: bbogart: that's what it does by default
[4:05pm] _hc: ok, maybe make them a bit thicker, but not as thick as before?
[4:05pm] bbogart: damn, I guess I never ever use small canvases!!!
[4:05pm] _hc: bbogart: I guess I am trying to get as much content in as possible 
[4:06pm] _hc: bbogart: I kind of like the look of it
[4:06pm] _hc: bbogart: its like a bullet point
[4:06pm] bbogart: _hc, to me it looks like a bug in the gui drawing.. 
[4:07pm] bbogart: Thanks for taking a stab, I'll use this as a starting point.
[4:07pm] bbogart: I should get going too. Anything else on your mind?
[4:07pm] fbar_ joined the chat room.
[4:07pm] _hc: yeah, I got to get going too, time to make a windows release!
[4:07pm] _hc: then I can actually leave the apartment!
[4:08pm] oskude: im still wondering on object-reference
[4:08pm] bbogart: hehe!
[4:08pm] bbogart: oskude, wondering what?
[4:09pm] oskude: bbogart, will that be text file as it was...
[4:09pm] fbar_: _hc: and after the win. release you start working on 0.29, right? 
[4:09pm] fbar_: s/0.29/0.39/
[4:09pm] bbogart: oskude, the template is a PD file... is that what you mean?
[4:10pm] oskude: bbogart, hmm, i mean the object-reference (right click on emtpy canvas>help) and listing them using this https://puredata.org/Members/bbogart/CatagoriesForExternals
[4:11pm] bbogart: hey fbar, would you still be interested in being associated with the tot project, or not at all?
[4:11pm] fbar_: Oh, I didn't use [tot] at all yet except for a bit of playing with it.
[4:11pm] fbar_: what's the tot-project? The stuff, carmen is doing?
[4:11pm] oskude: bbogart, i allready started to categorize all the pd internals (found couple categoris to add:)
[4:11pm] vinz joined the chat room.
[4:12pm] bbogart: oskude, Ahh, the catagories idea is more for the pull-down menu. There is no way of adding stuff to that file, its just a text file that has all the pd internals lists.
[4:12pm] bbogart: oskude, cool, did you post them as comments to the wiki?
[4:12pm] _hc: fbar: then linux
[4:12pm] oskude: bbogart, i newer used wiki  (but ill look that i get in to it)
[4:12pm] _hc: fbar_:then [hid] for win
[4:12pm] oskude: *never
[4:12pm] bbogart: fbar_, woops, I don't mean [tot] I mean www.tot.sat.qc.ca (host of pixelTANGO)
[4:12pm] _hc: fbar_: but 0.39 should be pretty easy
[4:13pm] oskude: bbogart, so that (right click...>help) will never have all the objects loaded ?
[4:13pm] fbar_: bbogart: ah, that tot. I don't know much about the background of that.
[4:13pm] bbogart: oskude, its pretty easy, or you could just post your ideas for catagories to the list. Note it is a argued topic...
[4:14pm] fbar_: _hc: Actually I do a workshop in December, where I will use [list] a lot, too, and I fear, there will be windows users. ... 
[4:14pm] oskude: bbogart, as i LOVE that (right..>help) and wanted to see all object that i have loaded (externals) using the categories...
[4:14pm] bbogart: oskude, not without big chances, you should ask chun and matieu about desireData
[4:14pm] oskude: bbogart, roger, ill check that later
[4:15pm] bbogart: fbar_, we'll anyhow I really like memento, and if it makes it easier to include features we want for pixelTANGO then that could be a good connection
[4:15pm] bbogart: oskude, lots of ideas out there for that kind of change.
[4:15pm] _hc: fbar_: ah ok, well, we'll see if I can get one out by then. it should be possible
[4:15pm] fbar_: _hc: that would be wonderful, big hugs.
[4:16pm] _hc: fbar_:  dec what?
[4:16pm] fbar_: _hc: dec 14-16
[4:16pm] _hc: woo hoo I just made a successful pd-extended.exe, time to test
[4:16pm] oskude: well, ill consentrate my (small) knowledge to find some solutions for our font problem
[4:17pm] bbogart: fbar_, I'm confused!
[4:17pm] fbar_: bbogart: sorry, I was talking to hc. Anyway, I really do consider pT to be very important when considering future features of Memento.
[4:18pm] stephanb left the chat room. ("Leaving")
[4:18pm] _hc: oskude: that would be awesome.  check the list archives, there is quite a bit of discussion on the topic
[4:18pm] oskude: _hc, roger
[4:18pm] _hc: bbogart: yes, it would be great to have rradical, memento, and pixeltango all inthe extended builds
[4:19pm] _hc: memento is already in, I think rradical is too, tho there might be matrix issues
[4:19pm] bbogart: fbar_, its a strange case in some ways, but I think us working together will solve some of this complex issues with big application-like patches. (RRADICAL) fixing those limitations of the OSCx stuff and so on. (pool of commun names)
[4:19pm] tgrill joined the chat room.
[4:19pm] fbar_: In many cases pT is, what RRADical should have been.
[4:20pm] tgrill: hey all
[4:20pm] fbar_: hi thomas
[4:21pm] bbogart: fbar_, what do you mean?
[4:21pm] bbogart: hi Thomas
[4:21pm] bbogart: "should have"?
[4:21pm] Sneaky_Bastard joined the chat room.
[4:21pm] fbar_: I mean, pT looks very polished, whereas the rradical patches are rather chaotic. I'm no visual type. Then they are more designed to work together, instead of rather being some "random" patches.
[4:22pm] dyno joined the chat room.
[4:22pm] fbar_: Maybe a kind of "template" for RRAD-patches similar to the tutorial templates would be cool.
[4:22pm] fbar left the chat room. (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[4:22pm] tgrill: what's pT?
[4:23pm] fbar_: pixelTANGO
[4:23pm] tgrill: ah, i see
[4:23pm] _hc: tgrill: hey
[4:23pm] _hc: tgrill: its like rradical for gem
[4:23pm] tgrill: sure, i didn't know the abbreviation
[4:23pm] _hc: tgrill: ah, ok
[4:23pm] oskude: hmm, "The desired size of the font. If the size argument is a positive number, it is interpreted as a size in points. If size is a negative number, its absolute value is interpreted as a size in pixels."  from http://perlhelp.web.cern.ch/PerlHelp/site/lib/Tk/Font.html (search for "tuned") hmm, is this a "feature" of perl ot tk...
[4:24pm] oskude: *perl or tk...
[4:24pm] bbogart: fbar_, ahh, I see what you mean. Actually I'm thinking this documentation project will end up requiring some very high-level patches for new users, not quite as integrated as pT, but with the same consistancy and flow, also not Gem-centric, more like "sound" "image"  rather than all the complex stuff.
[4:24pm] oskude: sorry, thinking loud 
[4:25pm] bbogart: oskude, cool, now if you can figure out where that needs to go in the PD source... 
[4:25pm] fbar_: bbogart: sounds good.
[4:25pm] oskude: bbogart,  (doing some tests...)
[4:25pm] bbogart: fbar_, pT involved a lot of mistakes as well, still some ugly stuff in there, like hard delays to deal manage the abstraction registration system. (yuck!!!)
[4:26pm] bbogart: fbar_, I did mention memento and your efforts to the TOT folks, so there could be option for an official role in the project if your interested...
[4:26pm] fbar_: bbogart: yes, this is why I didn't even start some automatic registration and require unique arguments.
[4:27pm] bbogart: _hc, where is the log for the meeting posted?
[4:27pm] fbar_: bbogart: Well, that could be interesting.
[4:27pm] fbar_: I'm really sorry, but unfortunatly I need to leave real soon now.
[4:28pm] bbogart: fbar_, we'll keep in touch about it. i recently had to add a feedback loop so that an abstraction lower on the chain could send a message to an abstraction above it.
[4:28pm] fbar_: bbogart: we really should do this kind of irc meeting for Memento/pT/RRADical regularily.
[4:28pm] bbogart: fbar_, np, we'll not next week at least I guess?
[4:29pm] bbogart: fbar_, post a call on the pd-list. 
[4:29pm] fbar_: maybe over the weekend? Lets just mail about this. I'll definitely joins the doc meeting next tuesday.
[4:29pm] _hc: oskude: that has been mentioned before, but no one has implemented it
[4:29pm] _hc: oskude: sounds like the right track
[4:29pm] fbar_: Okay, now I'm off. See ya'!
[4:29pm] oskude: i think that negative numbers in font size was a perl "feature", i think putting a minus here wont do that "format -*-%s-bold--normal--8-* $fontname" 
[4:29pm] oskude: bye
[4:29pm] fbar_ left the chat room. ("bye")
[4:30pm] bbogart: fbar_, please drop me a line, I'm pretty busy too. bye Frank!
[4:30pm] _hc: bbogart:  this meeting?
[4:30pm] _hc: bbogart: how about the pddp wiki http://puredata.org/dev/pddp
[4:31pm] bbogart: oskude, there was discussion about this on pd-dev or pd-list I think, check the archives
[4:32pm] oskude: bbogart, roger
[4:32pm] bbogart: _hc, I mean did you already post it? what is the URL if you have? or what will it be? I want to put it in my meeting notes I'm sending now.
[4:33pm] _hc: bbogart: no, not yet, I'll put it on that wiki
[4:33pm] _hc: ok, I have to run
[4:33pm] _hc: ttyl
[4:33pm] _hc: it was a good meeting
[4:33pm] bbogart: ok, email the list with the url!
[4:33pm] bbogart: talk to you soon.
[4:33pm] bbogart: bye
[4:33pm] _hc: ok, will do
[4:34pm] maltesteiner: bye
[4:34pm] oskude: bye
[4:34pm] You left the chat by being disconnected from the server.